Wednesday, January 17, 2007

Orphic Hymn just does not get it! By Rachel Salomon

A) Have you not accused the H/C of teaching to their youth hatred? You did, so where is my requested quote or name of a poem? All you have provided is some ill comparison to the Lydra Street grafitti that is a condemned event.

I shall once again reprint this quote from the Greek Cypriot author, Antonis Angastiniyotis, who wrote:“The majority of the Greek Cypriot youth know very little about the events that led to the island's division. The tragic events of 1974 have been used as a huge curtain to cover up the real events that led to the division of the two people. In our schools it has always surprised me that while talking about the heroism of EOKA, they skip 15-years and continue with 1974. Either nothing happened between 1960 and 1974, or no one wants to discuss this. While researching the events during this period (1960-74), I realized that the second choice was right. When I started to write this research, my cousin from Greece and her two daughters came to visit me and we started to discuss the events of 1963-74. The daughters knew nothing and what their mother knew was very confusing. At one stage of the discussion I mentioned some of the Greek Cypriot leadership's mistakes and all of a sudden this brought out the nationalist monster in my cousin who said: "Makarios' biggest mistake was not to have killed all the Turkish Cypriots in order for us to be comfortable". This sweet and pretty woman, who couldn't even kill an ant, had suddenly turned into a killer who could carry out mass murders. She wanted a whole race to be wiped out. This is what I said to her: "In other words, do you mean taking out all the children from school, all mothers with their babies and all the men from their work places and taking them to a big hole in Messaria and murder them…Do you want to be one of the murders or the one of the persons using the bulldozer to cover the mass graves…" There was silence. The example I gave helped her to understand the meaning of what she said. Then I started to speak again. "We tried this before in Ayvasil, Murataga, Atlilar, Taskent, but the only thing we succeeded in was soughing the fruits of our efforts". During our childhood we were taught that the Turks were barbaric dogs. My aunt used to say to me that they smelled because they weren't baptized. Whereas according to the Bible, we are modern Christians who love their environment. Then, why did our religious leader Makarios in 1964 say that 'If Turkey comes to intervene to protect the Turkish Cypriots, she will not find a single Turkish Cypriot to save…' The answer is clear. In Cyprus there is a saying, 'another priest's sermon'. In certain situations this enables us to hate. This book will deal with some of these special situations.”

Also, according to the US government’s 2005 Country Report on Human Rights practices in Cyprus, “The government continued to use textbooks at the primary and secondary school level that included inflammatory language derogatory of Turkish Cypriots and Turks. This was a particularly serious concern with history textbooks.”

b) Have you or have you not directly attacked the Hellenic people by titling them xenophobic and racist in a topic that is totally unrelated. And since you DID, do explain for what reason exactly did you resort to this totally unrelated to the topic, slander???

First of all, I quoted from a credible source, the Jerusalem Center for Strategic Studies. I did not just make these accusations up out of this air. Here is the report:

http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=381&PID=470&IID=640

It is in this report that I get the findings of the 2000 Eurobarometer survey, which found that 38 percent of Greeks were troubled by the presence of non-Greeks living in their country. According to the Jerusalem Center for Strategic Studies, this makes Greece the most xenophobic country in the European Union. This is not an attack. It is just a mere fact that I just backed up with this academic source citation. The only reason why I even brought up this fact is because Argyrou said the following: “When Salomon refers to the Ottomans giving the expelled Jews of Spain a home in the Ottoman empire she neglects to mention that this was at the expense of the Greeks of Thessalonica who were deported by the Turks so that the Jews could take their homes.” I have never heard this in my entire life. As a child, I was taught that the Jews of Spain moved to Salonika because they were welcome with open arms by Sultan Bayezid II. Argyrou sounded to me like he was mocking the home that this Turkish Sultan gave to the Jews, namely my ancestors. I got offended. Naturally, I responded, for I found this comment to be very anti-Semitic.

c) You claim to have not manipulated the Guardian quote, when not once but twice you attempted to relate it to T/C deaths. I want to see a specific Stephen's article that does relate it to T/C and not to the coup.

Michael Stephens report called “The Cyprus Question,” published by the British Northern Cyprus Parliamentary Group, quoted the Guardian, which reported on December 31, 1963, that “it is nonsense to claim, as the Greek Cypriots do, that all causalities were caused by fighting between armed men of both sides. On Christmas Eve many Turkish Cypriot people were brutally attacked and murdered in their suburban homes, including the wife and children of the Turkish Cypriot head of army medical services----allegedly by a group of forty men, many in army boots and greatcoats.” This is a direct quote. It can be found on page 15 of the report. This was the quote that I published in Israel Insider in my second article. It has absolutely nothing to do with the coup. As you can tell by the date, it was a good eleven years before the coup.

e) You totally manipulated the events of Aug. 95' and 96'. WHY distort the second that has been officially condemned by the UN and there are literally hundreds of links that could provide you with accurate info, so WHY the distortion especially when a H/C was killed??

To my knowledge, what I said about August 1995 and August 1996 is the truth. Here is what Michael Stephen had to say about the whole event, pages 38-40.

On 7th October 1995 a Turkish Cypriot farmer, Erkan Egmez, was snatched from his fields, and tortured by Greek Cypriot police. On 5 March 1996 the US State Depart report on human rights in Cyprus said: Egmez, appears to have been severely beaten in the period during and immediately after his arrest and eventually required ten days of hospitalization. According to some eye-witnesses hooded police officials continued beating him even as he was being admitted to hospital.

On 8th November 1995 hundreds of schoolchildren were given permission by Greek Cypriot officials to be absent from school. They participated in a violent riot under the guidance of teachers, in which Greek Cypriots seized a UN observation post and hoisted a Greek flag in the buffer zone. It is worth noting that it is almost always the Greek flag, not the Greek Cypriot flag, which is used on these occasions.

On 3rd June 1996 at 6:30am a Greek Cypriot National Guardsman in uniform was shot when he violated the buffer zone and refused to stop when challenged by Turkish Cypriot sentries. On 6th August 1996 armed Greek Cypriots tried to abduct a Turkish Cypriot shepherd from the buffer zone.

On 11th August 1996 several thousand young people, many on motorcycles who were organized to ride from Berlin, were encouraged to break into the UN buffer zone and confront the Turkish Cypriots on their border. They rampaged in the buffer zone, in defiance of the UN forces, setting fire to vegetation, brandishing knives, and throwing stones and Molotov cocktails. They tore down the UN barb-wire fence near Dherynia, and one was beaten to death in a violent struggle with Turkish Cypriots. Another was shot when he broke through the Turkish Cypriot line and tried to desecrate their flag. Instead of regretting these incidents and apologizing to the UN and to the Turkish Cypriots, the Greek Cypriots have treated the two hooligans as national heroes.

Neither of these men should have been killed, and the Turkish Cypriots must exercise greater restraint in future, whatever the provocation, for there are those on the Greek Cypriot side who are deliberately putting the lives of their young people at risk for political purposes. The Greek Cypriot motorcyclist leader Hadjicostas was asked by Selides magazine whether he had not thought that there might be victims. “Of course I did,” he said, “approximately 40 bikers die on the roads each year. Let some of them die for the country.”

The Greek Cypriot leadership must take ultimate responsibility for the death of the two men. They should have called off the incursion before it was too late, and should not have allowed them to cross into the UN Zone. Interviewed by the press immediately afterwards UN envoy Gustav Feissel said, “It was the responsibility of the Greek Cypriot government to ensure that the cease-fire line was not violated.”

Nor should the Greek Cypriot leadership have encouraged the organizers in the first place. The Greek Orthodox Church made a large financial contribution and Archbishop Chyrisostomos declared in September on Greek Star TV “The time has come to launch a full-scale struggle against the Turks-----it does not matter how much bloodshed there is or how many victims there are.” Many people may be surprised by such remarks from a senior clergyman. Also, the leader of the Greek Cypriot motorcyclists told Periodiko on 21st August 1996, “We were promised that the Greeks would provide transfer back to Germany in a Hercules transport plane of the Greek Air Force.”

Immediately after the riot, President Denkas called upon President Clerides to meet him. He said, “there is more need than ever for talks. I am ready to meet immediately, but Clerides may use the incident as an excuse not to meet.” He did refuse to meet. In a letter to Clerides on 22nd September 1996 Denkas said, “It is upon us, the leaders, to tell our peoples that there is no other way in Cyprus except coexistence as good neighbors under separate roofs, or as co-founders partners under one mutually agreed bizonal, bicommunal roof. Rushing our borders claiming the right to come and sweep off our properties and demanding submission by brute force, waving Greek flags and telling us that Hellenism will be victorious in Cyprus is surely not the way to a negotiated settlement.”

On 13th August 1996, the Greek Cypriot Cyprus Mail wrote that “The government’s handling of the whole matter has been naïve, indecisive, and irresponsible,” and quoting Clerides as saying that the bloody clashes had “given the message abroad that the two communities can not live together, and that the presence of Turkish troops in Cyprus was necessary.”


Orphic, I recognize that some Greek Cypriots died. But you have to ask yourself, what did they do to get themselves in that situation? Not that I am condoning that they were killed. I am just pointing out that they were encouraged by their leadership to harass Turkish Cypriots and violate a UN buffer zone.

76 comments:

Rachel Salomon said...

Orphic, you and your friends at Macedonia Forum really need to get a life. Tearing apart published articles is one thing. But to tear apart articles that are only published on a blog are another. You must have nothing better to do with your time to engage in such activities. I am not going to even bother responding reading or responding to your tearing apart of non-published articles of mine, merely because I start back at the university soon and will not have the time. So you might want to reconsider your slander war against my charactor.

Yankee Kiwi said...

Rachel,

I have seen G/C sites regarding the incursions with footnotes stating that it was a peaceful protest which was turned into a blood-bath by murderous Turkish Cypriots, including members of the TRNC government. Photos of the incident were published to back up these claims. Not suprisingly, there was no mention of deliberate provocations by the Greek Cypriots that resulted in those deaths. Talk about cynicism and hypocrisy. I shudder to think what would have happened had the TRNC authorities did not intervene.

Orphic Hymn said...
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Orphic Hymn said...
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Orphic Hymn said...

Ahh, Rachel, you're totally lost in a chaos of manipulation of events texts and even your own statements..

You had originally claimed:

>>These kinds of songs are taught to Greek Cypriot children to this day and they have a profound negative effect upon Greek Cypriot youth of today, as demonstrated by a recent violent attack upon Turkish Cypriot students in the English School in South Nicosia.<<


So by quoting what Antonis Angastiniyotis says that his aunt told him does not support your above statement!!! nor does his cousin of unknown education and social level's opinion prove something to support your point.

Let me remind you that you had compared these 'SONGS' to the graffiti written on Ledra Street. Which is obviously an ill comparison at the very least.

Secondly, you quote the US State Department's report that does indeed speak of 'inflammatory' and 'degrading' language in textbooks. The question is IF it actually supports your audacious and unsupported claims or if its refering to accounts similar to those found in the textbooks of Hellas.

Where reference to the historic account of the IMPALEMENT of Athanasios Diakos or the account of Ioannis Daskalogiannis being SKINNED ALIVE by Ottomans in Crete.. WAS considered as such.
I really don't see how on earth true events are deemed inflammatory but some do. Censorship on history.. nice.


*xenophobia/anti-Israelitsm.*

Sorry, but if you don't know that Bayezid had given the Spanish Jews the homes of the forcively enslaved and sold 7000 Hellenes, that isn't our problem.

But under no condition was his comment degratory towards Jews. It was directly connected to countering your audacious attempted beautification of the Ottoman empire and its treatment towards the Christians under its yoke.

As for what you call an objective source, well while I find no need to comment on the source, the individual that gave the interview in question has a huge issue with the people of Hellas. I find no other reason of attacking even religion and traditions in his strife to prove that we according to his ill perception have some form of hatred towards Jews.

How on earth could someone attempting to debate a people's feeling towards another group of people and even think he'd be considered impartial when, he attempts to vilify the religion of the very people he's accusing ??

But your closing comment is quite interesting:

>>I got offended. Naturally, I responded. <<

You got offended because you thought he was attacking your religion and people. Yet you dare question our outburst when you are continuously caught manipulating texts, quotes and events.
Yeah, that makes sence..


*Guardian quote*


OK, well you actually attempted to answer two questions in one. My reference to Guardian was mistaken and obviously mislead you. I was talking about the "Washington Star" quote that states:

>>"Bodies littered the streets and there were mass burials. People who were told by Makarios to lay down their guns were shot by the National Guard."<<

I got the sources mixed up, no problem, you can respond now.. BUT even so, in your comment yesterday you wrote:

>>According to the British Parliament, "These dreadful events were not the responsibility of the Greek colonels of 1974, or an unrepresentative handful of Greek Cypriot extremists. The persecution of the Turkish Cypriots was an act of policy on the part of the Greek Cypriot political and religious leadership." Orphic, you simply can not roll back the clock and pretend that these events did not happen between 1963-1974. You have not been able to rebuff most of the quotes that I have provided. You have been able to distort the Akritas Plan so that it is does not look as bad and rewrite some of the quotes of Makarios, but many of my sources you have been simply unable to counter except to call them biased.<<

Which the REAL quote as presented by ME yesterday proves that it is related to the events of 63-64 just as I wrote and NOT the events of 63-74 which you attempted to relate it to.
So, WHY did you AGAIN resort to manipulating a quote ???


*7th October 1995 Erkan Egmez*

>>On December 21, the ECHR found the Cypriot Government guilty of police abuse during the 1995 arrest for DRUG SMUGGLING of Turkish Cypriot Erkan Egmez and ordered the Government to pay Egmez $16,000 (10,400 pounds sterling) in compensation.<<

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/
hrrpt/2000/eur/722.htm

So sorry but Stephens' presentation of him as an honest and hard working farmer is trash.I and every rational individual condemn the drug loards, all those that attempt to infest the youth of the world with this disease. A beating is the least that I'd propose for him and all those that are implicated in this 'industry'.



*8th November 1995 hundreds of schoolchildren*

As I've already posted, the "Center for International Development and Conflict Management" states that TURKS threw stones and NOT the other way around as Stephens' presents. But isn't it convenient how he (or is it you) chose not to mention that the demonstrations were due to the abduction of a guardman ???



*3rd June 1996 *

I quote the UN:

>>12. The third incident took place on 3 June 1996. An unarmed National Guard soldier was shot and killed inside the United Nations buffer zone in central Nicosia. The investigation has revealed that the lethal round was fired by a Turkish Cypriot soldier whom UNFICYP had observed entering the buffer zone with his rifle strung across his back. Shortly thereafter a single shot was heard and the Turkish Cypriot soldier was seen running back in a crouched position to the Turkish cease-fire line holding his rifle in his right hand. UNFICYP soldiers were prevented from reaching the National Guard soldier by Turkish Cypriot soldiers who fired shots in the direction of the UNFICYP soldiers each time the latter tried to move forward. UNFICYP strongly protested to the Commander of the Turkish forces in Cyprus the unauthorized entry of an armed Turkish Cypriot soldier into the buffer zone, the shooting incident and the hostile action, including live fire against UNFICYP. UNFICYP is pursuing with the Turkish forces in Cyprus and with the Turkish Cypriot authorities the question of appropriate action and has requested that UNFICYP police investigating the killing be able to interview the Turkish Cypriot soldier involved in the incident. The military authorities on both sides have been urged once again to respect the United Nations buffer zone and ensure its integrity.<<

http://www.un.int/cyprus/s1996411.htm

One is unarmed the other IS, they chat, the T/C (or is it Turk) shoots him, runs back to hide and all T/C (or Turkish) forces shoot at the UNFICYP trying to approach and assist the wounded.

REASON: obviously so that he would succumb to his wound.

Do I need to comment on this any more? I'd think not.


*11th August 1996 *

Sorry but this is totally different to what you had originally presented. I insist you read the actual events, UN account included.. The pseudo-state imported and allowed armed GREY WOLF FACISTS to enter and attack a peacefull demonstration. In the previous days Denktash had openly claimed that the pseudo-state's military would shoot whoever entered the buffer zone, so the intentions were clear.

As for his reference to the deceased as "hooligans" what can I say other than despicable and inhuman.



The TRUTH so you call it, is NOT found in one-sided propaganda sources that they themselves have distorted their 1968 accounts in an attempt to satisfy their employers, but through objective research and under no condition can your continuous copy/pasting be titled as such.

For the.. what is it?... 100th time, I insist you see that it IS NOT a one sided event and it does take 2 to tango.

PS: you forgot to respond to several questions..

Rachel Salomon said...

"Bodies littered the streets and there were mass burials. People who were told by Makarios to lay down their guns were shot by the National Guard."

Thıs quote came from the Stephens book, page 23, under the title of Greek invasion.

Right after this section, there is a section called Turkey Responds. Here is a quote from the former British Prime Minister, Sir Alec Douglas Home, "I was convinced of the view that if Archbishop Makarios could not bring himself to treat the Turkish Cypriots as human beings he was inviting the invasion and partition of the island."

Rachel Salomon said...

Simon Bahceli reported in the English language Greek Cypriot daily "Cyprus Mail" on 4 November 2004 that Greek Cypriot film maker and writer Antonis Angastiniotis said the media has effectively banned a film he made, portraying the mass killing of Turkish Cypriots in the villages of Murataða (Maratha), Atlilar (Aloa) and Sandallar (Sandalari) in 1974. The newspaper quoted Angastiniotis as saying:


"We claim European standards, European principles, European laws, but the TV channels did not even ask to look at the film…All Turkish Cypriots know what happened in these villages. It is the Greek Cypriots who do not…Let’s face it: truth is truth. As a state you have to be able to face your faults, your mistakes, your history…The Greek Cypriot of the neighbouring villages, along with army personnel attacked the villages. They shot the children, the mothers and the old people left in the villages…For me this became a nightmare because all these years I had been convinced that everything we had done was right".

Yankee Kiwi said...

Okay, I see that Orphic Hymn has changed tactics and is using sources to back up what he says. It turns this into a healthier debate. In any case Rachel, your rebuttals of his sources are solidly based. If all of this was presented to the World Court, I onder how they would rule? Of course, to make the ruling fair, there can be no pressure brought upon it by the UN or other governments...

Yankee Kiwi said...

I have heard of Antonis Angastiniotis, and his efforts to uncover the truth about the Maratha, Atlilar and Sandallar massacres. Is Orphic hymn going to make direct comments on thses events, or is he just going to use the word TRAITOR to describe Mr. Angastiniotis and then bury his own head in the sand?

Orphic Hymn said...

Selective quoting and selective reading..
WHERE did the Rina Katselis quote go? did you forget it or did you intentionally avoid to mention it because it mentions Makarios and EOKA B' supporters???

Anyway some very interesting notes..

a) Makarios wasn't even on the island on the 22nd of July 74'

b) The avoided to be mentioned quote (R.Katsellis) speaks about the EOKA B' and Makarios supporters fighting.

c) even if Makarios was on the island why on earth would any T/C even listen to him when we know that a war was going on between H/C and invading Turkish forces?

d) the only attack recorded that could cover this alleged quote was that of the enclave of Argyta on the 20th, when Turkish paratroopers were dropped in H/C lines and were eventually killed.
I wont mention Kioneli since the H/C saw a massive defeat.

e)the only recorded attacks against enclaves with undoubtable mass graves as a result take place AFTER the 2nd wave of the invasion.

But why do you avoid addressing the proven fallacies but instead present more non-related quotes?

Yankee Kiwi said...

Interesting. You use the term H/C instead of G/C. THAT can be interpreted in various ways, Orphic Hymn. What do you call Turkish Cypriots: 'scum of the earth'?
Anyway, I'm well aware that Makarios was off the island during the EOKA-B coup. If he didn't flee, he would have been killed by Sampson's supporters. It doesn't change the fact that while Makarios was briefly deposed, Makarios still desired the Hellenification of the Island iof Cyprus. Sampson (backed by the Greek military Junta) simply wanted it done in a more 'expedient' manner.
By the way, T/C enclaves were attacked before Operation Atilla - actually, WAY before then. Just look at the siege of Erenkoy as a prime example of that.

Rachel Salomon said...

I know that this particular quote was related to Greek violence against Greek Cypriots. My whole point in displaying this quote was to show that Turkish Cypriots were not the only victims of the Greek coup in 1974. However, although you have torn into certain quotes, you have still failed to come up with a counter for many other quotes that said the exact same points, such as the Sampson quote on how all of the Turkish Cypriots would have been dead if Turkey had not intervened and the quote where Makarios said that the dreams of EOKA can never be achieved with out the expulsion of the Turkish Cypriots. I also have been doing some surfing of the web and found a quote where he specifically stated that his religion was superior to other religions. Finding ways to discredit a couple of my sources is not enough to destroy my general arguement. Also, you can not simply dismiss a source as biased because you did not like what it said. Last time I checked, the Jerusalem Center for Strategic Studies was a Jewish think tank whose only interest was defending Jews against anti-Semitism. They have nothing to do with the Turkish cause or have any thing against Greeks. You have still not provided proof that Harry Scott Gibbons is a paid agent of the Turkish government. You have also failed to find any thing to discredit Stephens other than you don't like how he wrote and therefore, it is biased and anti-Greek to you. I am sorry Orphic, but just as labeling is not good enough for you, it is not good enough for me either. If you are going to insist that I back up every single one of my sentences with citing evidence, I insist that you do the same. It is only fair.

Yankee Kiwi said...

Rachel,

'Fair' is a relative term to people like Orphic Hymn. In his case 'fair' is 'fair' if it slavishly agrees with everything he stands for, otherwise, it's 'lying propaganda'.
Speaking of which, I've tried to register on the Macedonia forum so that I could comment on their attacks against you, but for some strange reason, I cannot do so. Looks like they are pulling the same tricks as the CyBC: censoring opinions contrary to their stated opinions. It sounds like they would be welcome in North Korea...

Rachel Salomon said...

Seriously, as long as Orphic Hymn is going to be commenting on this site, they should let you comment on theirs. I guess unlucky for us, I actually do believe in freedom of speech, which is why I have tolerated Orphic Hymn leaving so many comments. Seriously, he got so nasty that I had to threaten to erase all of his future comments if he did not stop the name-calling. As long as he does not name-call, I am inclined to not deprive him of his freedom of speech. But seriously, given that I am giving that to him, they should give that same right to you. SUCH HYPOCRITES!

Orphic Hymn said...

kiwi..
I have no idea what your vivid imagination has made you see, I used H/C due to lack of time, as you've seen by now, I prefer the use of the term 'Hellenic' instead of 'Greek', hence why the H was used instead of G. but what is this scum crap you're babbling about??

As for the events of the Kikkina/Erenkoy enclave, I know the facts of the mater, the question is if you do?

and IF you do, why try to disclose the fact that Turkey was importing TMT fighters and weapons from that enclave, which is the reason it was attacked??

Orphic Hymn said...

>>I know that this particular quote was related to Greek violence against Greek Cypriots. My whole point in displaying this quote was to show that Turkish Cypriots were not the only victims of the Greek coup in 1974.<<

Short memory!!!

In your "The truth about Cyprus" is the truth!", you claimed that this quote was refering to Turkish Cypriots and then in your "Orphic Hymn, wake up to reality! By Rachel Salomon" you again manipulate it and suggest they were killed because they weren't killeing Turkish Cypriots quickly enough.

NOW you again TWIST your words and suggest that you know it was "related to Greek violence against Greek Cypriots"

So WHY the continuous manipulation of the quote IF you know what it states as you suggest??


You mention countering other quotes.. Well all you have is Stephen's word on it, no actual newspaper clip, nothing, just his word and after I indicated how he intentionally took the G.Plaza quote out of context, I can say that his word is NOT enough.

As for the Sampson quote. as I already wrote, but you don't seem to be paying attention to what others write.

I said that while I've read several of his interviews (some can be found online) none, not in a single one of them did he ever mention anything remotely close to this comment. Once this is added to the fact that its only found in pseudo-state propaganda sites, sorry but it becomes even worse..

But you still don't get it. NOONE has claimed that the Hellenic Cypriots were saints, but that the events presented are totally one sided and a clear manipulation in order to present them as the ones to blaime.

You mention the Makarios quote, WHY would he mention exterminating Turkish Cypriots when he has openly opposed to EOKA B' acivities?
Let me inform you of his letter towards the Hellenic government and the UN which spoke of generals undermining the government and that they should be replaced.

Why replace those that are actually preforming what you've allegedly preached and openly supported ???


Jerusalem Center for Strategic Studies

Yes I know what its all about, but I am not questioning the center nor its cause, I specifically critisized the individual who gave the interview. An individual that speaks of hatred when HE himself attacks their religious beliefs.
An individual that suggests we won't allow him to bear the title Hellenic when he himself defines himself NOT as a Hellene but as "Greek born"..
Anyway, as I said, this issue is totally irrelevent to the topic which is CYPRUS and not some imaginative attack against Jews.


H.S.Gibbons

Well sorry that I don't have a copy of his pay-check.. but any individual that as proven from the quoting of Patrick Richard's account HAD accepted that a Hellenic Cypriot WAS killed during the events of Dec. 21st 1963, has now changed his account to ONLY mentioning 2 Turkish Cypriots.

Is at least not credible.


Stephens.

Not liking what he wrote is not the issue here. I clearly proved that he had intentionally taken the G.Plaza quote out of context, a quote which you also used even when you allegedly had read the report, indicating that you too had absolutely no problem with the intentional manipulation.

As for backing up my evidence, sorry to break it to you, but I'm the one preseting links to the UN reports, I'm the one that when mentions newspaper quote, presents a pic of it, I'm the one citing exact book and page.

So don't try to discredit my accounts by comparing them to your fallacies and intentional manipulations.

Orphic Hymn said...

kiwi, YOU ARE A LIAR!!!

I have said that you were noticed registering when this whole thing was still in Israelinsider, which is even BEFORE this blog was put up. I even asked WHY you didn't post since you registered and NOW you dare try to blame your cowadice on us by claiming we consor opinions!!!

The site is open to everyone and does NOT censor anyone's opinion as long as there are no insults included, but your fear of public ridicule, since it obviously gains far more visitors than this blog, and that is what has lead you to hide in here..

Fine, do so, but DO NOT attempt to blame your cowadice on others.

Rachel Salomon said...

Orphıc, I never claimed that I got the Galo Plaza Report quotes from Stephens. I got the Galo Plaza report quotes actually from the Galo Plaza Report from the Cyprus Conflict website that you referred me to. It is true that Stephens account of the 95-96 event does not match yours. However, he has taken quotes from tons of newspapers and quoted directly from them. Other than a couple of them related to Makarios and extermination of Turkish Cypriots and my interpretation of the Akritas Plan, you have failed to deny any of my quotes. Indeed, you have acknowledged that most of them exist and I quoted accurately by your silence. All you have to counter most of my quotes is that I got them from TRNC sources. But not all of them. The Galo Plaza one I got purely from the actual UN report and the Jerusalem Center for Strategic Studies has nothing to do with Cyprus or Greece or Turkey. I am glad that we can at least agree on that one.

Orphic Hymn said...

She CONTINUES TO LIE !!!!

Is this quote nothing more than a copy/paste off Stephens' article ??

>>> On 29th March 1965 (UN doc. S/6252) the UN Mediator for Cyprus, Dr. Galo Plaza, had said "It is obvious that the Cyprus problem cannot any longer be solved by trying to implement fully the (1960) Nicosia Treaties and the Constitution governed by the treaties. .... The events since December 1963 have created a situation which makes it psychologically and politically impossible to return to the previous situation." <<<

IT IS, so why try to claim someone else's trash as your own, why try to make us believe you've actually comprehended the G.Plaza report, when as proven you DO NOT ??

You claim Stephens' manipulated propaganda does not match 'my' version of the events of 65'-66'. Well they are not my version nor 'my' interpretation of the events. They are the OFFICIAL UN ACCOUNTS.

If you think that a propagandist like Stephens is more accurate than UN reports, the reports of the people that actually were eye-witness.. then what can I say, I guess the brainwashing has eliminated any essence of sanity left.


You speak of denying you quotes.. Sorry but I'm not interested in some ghost chase to find probably non-existant or ill presentations of quotes. Stephens has lost his credibility by the one-sided approach filled with manipulation of events and reports. And THAT is enough to discredit him, there's no need to refute it word by word since his objective is clear.

While you only mention the intentionally manipulated Makarios quotes, the fallacious interpretation of the Akritas plan, you neglect that you have been taught volumes of history, for example, your denial of the Ottomans importing Turks and massacring 20.000 of the population of Nicosia, your attempted alienation of the Hellenic presence and charater of the island since the 1st millenium BC, your total ignorance on what the Iphestos plan was and when it was formed, the formation of the TMT and its objectives....etc.

You mention pseudo-state sources, when you obviously understand they are totally bias. If I was to start presenting Hellenic Cypriot sources and thus their version of the events we'd get nowhere. THAT is why I insist on the use of objective sources which Gibbons and Stephens can NOT be titled as.

Finally as for the Jerusalem Center , I really don't care about it, since its irrelevent to the Cyprus issue. It was YOU that brought it in the discussion when you felt attacked and by doing so attempted to slander an entire people.

Rachel Salomon said...

That particular quote I did get from Stephens, but the rest related to Galo Plaza I got from the actual report. That was not a lie, for most of my quotes related to Galo Plaza actually came from Galo Plaza. That is not related to Galo Plaza, except that it has the same author. And yes he did say that, so what is the problem?

Rachel Salomon said...

I know exactly what the Iphestos Plan was. It was a detailed map planning out the destruction of the Turkish Cypriots. Just type in Iphestos Plan in google and nothing that denies its existance as such will pop up. Actually, here is what pops up:

http://web.israelinsider.com/Views/10184.htm
http://web.israelinsider.com/views/10258.htm
http://www.trncinfo.com/TURKCE/BMbelgesi/BM7.HTM
http://www.trncinfo.com/tanitmadairesi/2002/ENGLISH/ARTICALSandCOMMENTS/AC38.htm
http://www.haber.net.kk.tc/haber_detay.php?haber_id=1296
http://www.sam.gov.tr/perceptions/Volume6/September-November2001/HARRY_SCOTT_GIBBONS_6.PDF

Not one source that denies that the Iphestos Files were any thing but what I claimed them to be----a plan for the extermination of the Turkish Cypriots.

Rachel Salomon said...

I was debating some Greeks on facebook. Although they deny that Makarios wanted to exterminate the Turkish Cypriots and that the Akritas Plan was a plan for genocide, even they admitted that the Iphestos Files had genocidal intentions. These were university students from Greece and even they could admit the truth. Admit that you have no proof to counter what I said about the Iphestos Files.

Yankee Kiwi said...

A liar am I, Orphic Hymn?

Then how would you explain the fact that my effort to register on Macedonia have failed? I tried several times with several e-mail addresses in order to get the confirmation code, but lo and behold, NO CONFIRMATION! I bet that any user that mentions the word KIWI must be black-listed. Rousy Gleek Plicks...

Yankee Kiwi said...

Erenkoy village was bringing in fighters and weapons... which the Turkish Cypriots needed to counter the fighters and weapons of the Greek Cypriot paramilitaries and their Greek supporters. That enclave was also the only source for foods and other essentials for the Turkish Cypriot populace since it was the last access that Turkish Cypriots had to the outside world at that time. So yes, I do know about the siege. SO SORRY that the Turkish Air Force finally broke it. Erenkoy is a monument to the Turkish Cypriot resistance and it is fitting that it is an exclave of the TRNC.

Rachel Salomon said...

"It is estimated that we have better chances of succeeding in our efforts to influence international public opinion in our favour if we present our demand, as we did during the struggle, as a demand to exercise the right of self-determination, rather than as a demand for union with Greece (Enosis)."

Same quote showing Greek deception of international public opinion is on the Cyprus Conflict website:

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/akritas_plan.htm

"When this is achieved no legal or moral power can prevent us from deciding our future."

In other words, Greek Cypriots view themselves as above international law.

"The people, once Cyprus is not bound by the restrictions of the Treaties of Guarantee and Alliance regarding the exercise of the right of self-determination, will be able to give expression to and implement their desire."

Their desire, of course, was Enosis by any means neccessary, even if that meant committing genocide, as illustrated in the Iphestos Plan.

Although you deny that one quote by Makarios to be true because I got it from Turkish sources, here is a quote of Makarios from a neutral source:

“Unless this small Turkish community forming a part of the Turkish race, which has been the terrible enemy of Hellenism, is expelled, the duty of the heroes of EOKA can never be considered as terminated”

http://www.middleeastinfo.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=6675

Rachel Salomon said...

Orphic, you might be able to argue that the Akritas Plan was merely the stated objectives of the Greek Cypriots. However, one can not help but notice it is a plan on how to deceive the world, by getting the world to rely on what the Greek Cypriots had to say and not what the Turkish Cypriots had to say. The overall content of the plan shows that it is a plan for how to achieve Enosis with as little international damage as possible. As for Iphestos Files, you can not deny the genocidal nature of those plans.

Yankee Kiwi said...

Rachel,

I'm beginning to think that you may be giving this punk Orphic Hymn too much attention. He's obviously revelling in it, and passing the word along to his fellow losers on the Macedonia forum (why the blog is called Macedonia is interesting in itself as there happens to be a Republic of Macedonia in existance that is not part of the Hellenic Republic).
Let him spout his hatred while he has him bottle of ouzo to suck on and get back to the task at hand: telling the truth about TRNC.

Orphic Hymn said...

Sorry Rachel but you DID NOT know what it was, the ill presentation of it in your pseudo-state propaganda sites didn't provide you with the info I did, hence why you ignored its existance in 63'.

The Uni. students you're talking with, what can I say.. I guess that they haven't been taught the events correctly..
As for proof, I already provided you with the source and dates, all left for you to do, is the research


You continue with the Akritas plan that you still are unable of comprehending.. What don't you understand about NO FORCE???

Anyway, the attempted connection of Iphestos to Akritas simply indicates that you're actually wasting my time and are unable of understanding the simplest of issues. The Akritas plan is related to the objective of Enosis, while Iphestos is nothing more than the threat made against the Turkish invasion.

If you can't understand this, we'll have to go all the way back to A,B,C's..

As for the non-existant quote you found in some forum.. I suggest you read something objective, like the Richard Gillbert interview.

While you claim it was related to genocide, you then state:
"it is a plan for how to achieve Enosis with as little international damage as possible"

How on earth is a genocide plan not going to bring in international 'damage'?.. that was the point that the Akritas plan clearly forbids the use of force..

Orphic Hymn said...

kiwi, yes you are a LIAR!!!

How do I know you registered on the site if I didn't see your profile under the name expatkiwi??

If you are unable to understand the process of registration that is not my fault.. There is an email with a link to activate your profile, now if you gave a false email and never received it, that just indicates your stupidity..


As for your version of Kokkina, its another one of hose fallacies you love promoting..

Its a well recorded fact that Makarios had originally 'starved the Turkish Cypriots but when he altered his tactics and began providing them portions of food, they would simply leave it to rot.

Actually during 64 after the air raids, he had even left 9 OTNS of food which they again left to rot..
You may consider it heroic, I call it for what it is..

As for your final celebration of your stupidity, post your insults, manipulate screen names resort to what you are good at, since the history of Cyprus is NOT IT.

If you want to discuss the name of the forum and Maceodnian history, I urge you to finally provide an accurate email so that you can activate your chosen name. Then you will be taught volues of history on what Macedonian was, is and always will be..

Until then continue to spread your propaganda and that driven by your inferiority complex hatred against anything relted to Hellas.

Yankee Kiwi said...

You won't believe this, but Hellas as a country with a rich history is not what I despise, and after all, New Zealand troops died trying to help Greece protect itself against the Germans in WW2. Our greatest war hero won his first Victoria Cross fighting in Crete.
However, I do despise Hellenic Nationalism which involves discrimination against minorities and annexation of land at the expense of other national groups (Crete was an excellent example of that, by the way). This type of philosophy was what my country fought against in WW2. How's that for irony?
It really seems to me that given the prevailing attitude to non-Greek peopulation groups, Hellenic Nationalism sounds more like National Socialism in that it espouses getting more 'Hellenic living space' and making the lands more homogenous. Have I described it accurately enough for you?

Rachel Salomon said...

Why is Greece called the Hellenic Republic of Greece? It makes no sense. Why can't they just call it the Republic of Greece? One of my co-workers said to say the Hellenic Republic of Greece would be like saying the Turkic Republic of Turkey. Why do they need to say the same thing twice?

Rachel Salomon said...

And Orphic, most if not all countries that engage in genocide try to cover them up. Hitler tried to deceive the International Red Cross. The Sudanese government is trying to deceive the world as well about what is going on in Darfur. Serbia was trying to deceive the world about both Bosnia and Kosavo. Although it is true that genocide always does have international damage if it is discovered by the world press, that does not mean that countries would not try to deceive the world and cover up their actions.

Yankee Kiwi said...

And the territory north of the Green Line is called the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. Long Live the TRNC!

P.S. You want to see a moron? Then take a look at Tassos Papadopoulos

Orphic Hymn said...

Rachel, if this is the level of education your co-workers have, I fully understand why you know nothing about Cyprus. Please tell your co-worker he/she is totally ignorant!!!

Hellas and Greece, just like Hellenes and Greeks are terms used interchangeably. They mean the very same thing.
Greece/Greek is simply the Latinized version, while Hellas/Hellene the one used by the native population since antiquity.

Its similar to Germans using the term Deutschland while the rest of the world refers to their country as Allemagne or Germany.

Rachel Salomon said...

That makes a little bit more sense, but I also understand where my co-worker was coming from. Why repeat the same thing twice? If Greeks prefer than ancient name, then why not just say Helles?

Yankee Kiwi said...

I had read in an article some years ago that while Hellas is indeed the local name for Greece, it is used between Greek-speaking people. The use of 'Hellas' and 'Hellene' when conversing with foreigners (according to the article) is an expression of 'extreme national pride', which carrys the same meaning of 'barbarian' as opposed to 'non-Greek speaking'.

Rachel Salomon said...

No wonder my co-worker got so offended by the use of the Hellenic Republic of Greece. It is not only repitive, but also can interpreted as calling non-Greeks barbarians? It sounds like the Hebrew word goyim to describe non-Jews or the Spanish word grenga to describe non-Spanish people.

Yankee Kiwi said...

According to that article, it is so. It was a long time ago that I read it so I can't give you a reference, but I remember it pretty well. If the article is indeed accurate, then the use of Greeks of the term 'Hellene' in talking to non-Greeks smacks of arrogance and implied superiority.

Orphic Hymn said...

The country is called the "Hellenic Rep." and has been titled as such since its formation.
the use of both names Hellas and Greece simply indicates stupidity since your co-worker fails to comprehend that both terms define the same thing.

as for kiwi's interpretation which would of course come from a non-existant article, I can only say that I honestly pitty him and those like him.

Yankee Kiwi said...

Sorry I can't give the article reference to you, but it was something I did read. It was an opinion piece in a local paper regarding national pride and perceptions. Greece was an example. So was the U.S.A., The U.K., former African colonies, and the peoples of the former USSR.

I really do get tired of your accusations, Orphic Hymn. It must really rankle that there are people out in the world who despise the isolation of the T/C people and both Greece's and Greek Cyprus' denial of the T/C's basic rights as outlined in international conventions.

Rachel Salomon said...

Seriously, I doubt that his counter article that personally attacked me would have made it into any mainstream Greek Cypriot newspaper. At least two of my articles made it into Israel Insider, a mainstream publication. Even Argyrou did not have as many personal problems with me. He just objected to my articles. In the second one, he did get a little personal and unprofessional, but his first article was very professional even though I did not agree with a word that he had to say. And as a Greek Cypriot, Argyrou had every right to write a counter article. And he did on the publication where it was published too. Why post a counter article attacking someones charactor on a forum where I did not even publish the article!

Yankee Kiwi said...

Rachel,

Well, at least I'm cheered by one thing: The giant TRNC flag painted on the mountain range overlooking Lefkosa. Its a sight to cheer those living in North Lekosa and a sight to stick in the throat of those living in the south. Its such a nice way of one country giving another the finger...

Orphic Hymn said...

Sorry to break it to you kiwi, but you have proven to have a really bad relationship with the truth.

From your racist slander to your lies of censorship and possums to your non-existant articles and your latest in which we Hellenes and Hellenic Cypriots deny the Turkish Cypriots their rights through the isolation that you can not come to understand is a international phenomenon since only Turkey has recognized the pseudo-state, tells us alot about you.

As for your stupidity depicted in that flag comment.. you again prove what you represent through your celebration of the oppressor's mark left on the island.

Yankee Kiwi said...

Actually, you are right: I do have a bad relationship with 'truth': Greek Cypriot 'truth', that is. That's the difference between you and me: I try to discern FACT. TRUTH is merely a person's interpretation of FACT, and as we both seem to agree, propaganda is merely another name for 'truth'.
By the way, I take serious issue with your defining that flag as 'an oppressor's mark'. That flag was decided upon after a public competition held in North Cyprus. Therefore - even if not internationally recognized as a national flag - it is the representative flag of the Turkish Cypriot COMMUNITY. Greek Cypriots have their own counterpart communal flag: a blue flag with a white Greek Cross. Where the arms of the cross meet, there is a depiction of the map of Cyprus in gold. This can be seen on the FLAGS OF THE WORLD website.

Rachel Salomon said...

I don't see any thing wrong with either countries flag. The more and more I study the issue, I grow to favor a two-state solution. Even most of the Greek Cyriots in my group favor that. They don't want a bi-racial government. It did not work in the past, so why would it work in the future? After listening to Turks, Greeks, Turkish Cypriots, and Greek Cypriots in my Cyprus Debate group, I find a two-state solution to be the best. I don't blame Greek Cypriots for not wanting to change their national anthem or flag. I also understand why they want immediate compensation, versus gradual. Nevertheless, that does not mean that Turkish Cypriots should continue to suffer under isolation due to this non-wilingness on the Greek side to have a bi-racial state. As Deanna said, "The idea of Greeks and Turks living together in one state is as unthinkable as Israelis and Palestinians living together in one state." Makes sense, so why do people have such a big problem with partition? As long as both sides get compensated for their losses, what is the big deal? I vote for the Deanna Plan.

Orphic Hymn said...

Sorry kiwi, but we obviously will never agree on what is done for the people and what is to feed some military fool's ego..

Let me just inform you of the incident of past Oct. when the pseudo-state was to upgrade its electricity generators and refused to have the Hellenes assiting them by providing them with the 'juice' they'd lack untill this upgrade was done..

The military goons that rule the north, prefered to keep its population in the dark instead of accepting Hellenic assistance which as they had cleared, would NOT include electricity for the flag in question..

So while the Turkish Cypriots were in the dark relying on candles, the pseudo-states military goons had their little light show..

As for the flag in question, while you mention FOTW website, you seem to have a problem comprehending what is said there..

Just look at the 83-84 flag and the quotation of the pseudo-state's constitution and you'll see what I'm talking about..

We should also note that the competition was for the 1960's flag which Cyprus STILL USES since the one you claim is NOT official but used by specific organizations/groups..

Yankee Kiwi said...

Orphic Hymn, I'll give you a nickel's worth of free advice: NEVER PRESUME TO ME THAT I HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF FLAGS. Vexillology (flag research) is a specialty of mine so I know of what I speak when it comes to this topic. True, the 1960 Republic flag was as a result of a competition, as well as the aborted 2004 design for the UCR flag. The current Turkish Cypriot flag was adopted in early 1984 as the result of a competition that attracted a little over 200 entries.

Anyway, by the tone of your last topic, you seem to regard the TRNC administration under Mehmet Ali Talat as a puppet regime under control of the Turkish Military. How do you draw this conclusion, given the large voter turnout and the multi-party political establishment in TRNC?

Orphic Hymn said...

Yeah I've heard about vexillology before.. thanks for the advice but no thanks, I won't be needing it. Since by your reference to the Cypriot flag you've proven you don't know much.

As for the pseudo-state.. what would you call the puppet that folded before the military's demands of leaving his people in the dark?

What you you call the puppet that had openly threatened he'd close the borders should the Hellenic Cypriots persue the law suits for the land issue?

Honestly who'd be harmed if he had actually went forward and did close them. Would it be the Hellenic Cypriots or the some 10.000 Turkish Cypriots that finally found work that provided them with adequate wages to feed their own?

What makes this individual any better than the previous facist that used to ban the Turkish Cypriots from the Pan Cypriot Trade Union.. a union that gave them medical care, a steady sallary and a pension ??

Do the comparison and beside the agenda you strive to promote, honestly tell me whats the benefit in such actions.. (I do mean Turkish Cypriot benefit)

What would you call a puppet that allows death threats against journalists and individuals that assist in finding the locations of the mass graves and for what reason would he allow this to take place??

Orphic Hymn said...

Heres a very informative article for both you and especially for Rachel..

http://www.bilban.org/post/efp/3.htm

Here you and of course Rachel may finally learn what the pseudo-state teaches its youth.

Yankee Kiwi said...

http://www.dw-world.de/popups/popup_lupe/0,,2323234,00.html


For your information, Orphic Hymn, I am a member in good standing of various vexillological organizations, I have presented and published various papers regarding certain national flags over the last few years (though interestingly enough, not Cyprus...yet).

The references to the Northern Cypriot flag being designed in a competition appear in various flag books, so by calling me a liar, you're calling some of the most eminent vexillologists liars as well.

The flag law in Cyprus is clear, and also unique as the law (technically) allows the Greek and Turkish flags to be freely used. Still, I wouldn't want to go to south Nicosia and test that law by waving a Turkish Flag. I might get my throat clashed by you...

Orphic Hymn said...

I didn't say you're a liar (well at least not when discussing the flag issue) I simply said that your credentials can be questioned because as you already proven with your reference to the Cypriot flag (see 2-3 posts above), you do not know as much as you claim.

by the way, you're link gives me nothing.

Anonymous said...

Kiwi is a dumb ass liar and a no life who spends hours surfing the web. I wonder what you did before you retired to Cali. Navy intelligence?, airforce?, or any other intelligence agency. Dude this is a paranoid culture and you seem to love to light fires. Perhaps you have some relation with the devil?

Yankee Kiwi said...

What's the matter, anonymous: truth hurt? Comparing me with the devil is ironic, considering that the Greek Orthrodox Church in Cyprus had openly called for the removal of the Turkish Cypriot people. And they are supposed to be good Christians?

albiontg said...

Its funny how it was a peaceful protest, but how did they manage to get near the Turkish side?? Float over the green line?

Between 1963 and 1974, many Turkish Cypriots were killed, tortured and women were raped, Children as young as 16 DAYS OLD were shot.

Greeks do teach their kids to hate Turks...

My dad (Turk) went to a funeral for a Greek man that he knew, along with another Greek friend. My dad lived in a Greek village in Cyprus, so he could speak Greek just as well as Greeks could. During this mans funeral, the priest proceeded to talk about Cyprus and how the Greeks will rise and kill every Turk in Cyprus. Kill all the Turks in Istanbul and reclaim it as Constantinople. If this is not a living example of the Greeks preaching hate, then I don’t know what is. I’m a little unsure if this is common practice among everyone else, but it’s not for me. In all honesty I didn’t even know Turks and Greeks were enemies until I was about 12 years old. I know I am generalizing, but by 10 years old, I bet the majority of Greek kids would be taught to hate Turks.

Example:
Have the Greek posters here ever heard of this saying "The best Turk is a dead Turk". Isn't that south Cyprus’s national slogan?? Well it is currently written all over buildings on the green line by Greeks. I visited various tourist attractions in the TRNC and they were graffiti with EOKA everywhere. I thought EOKA was dead; don’t you still have marches for a terrorist organization?

Orphic Hymn said...

So after kiwi's begging..
atcanews finally sends support..


albiontg

Your fictional story actually indicates exactly what the problem is. The hatred harbored and taught to you since your youth has lead you to desecrate someone's funeral..

I never could understand why you people resort to desecrating the dead and find great pride in it.. and from what it seems, I never will understand.

Its actually quite sad that you can't admit the truth but instead claim that you never heard that the Hellenes or Hellenic Cypriots were your enemies..

The above link proves that in the 5th grade Turkish Cypriot youth are taught exactly that.

As for your example, why do you people continously generalize ???

Are all Turkish Cypriots part of or supporters of TMT B' ??

Are all Turks part of or supporters of the Grey Wolves ??

Were all Turks on the streets yelling hate slogans against the Pope?

Do they all participate in the demonstrations of hatred against the Patriarchate ??

See what I mean.. sure the slogans do exist but they exist on both sides, we can see extreme actions from minorities, but trying to use this minority as a representation of the entire population is totally wrong.
Wrong because there's an even larger group on both sides that doesn't support their views but instead promotes unity.

When you and those that share your views start seeing this fact, future will look a hole lot better.

Yankee Kiwi said...

ATCA has a better caliber of people that you'll ever know, Orphic hymn. I wouldn't call them terorists.... like EOKA.

Orphic Hymn said...

Terrorists.. nah don't like the word.. which is why neiher would I compare them to Volcan nor TMT..

Unlike the hatred you continuously celebrate, I have nothing against Turks nor Turkish Cypriots..

But since I'm sure you'll ask for my choice of words... I'd use BRAINWASHED and VICTIMS OF TURKISH PROPAGANDA!!!

Yup thats what I'd use..

Yankee Kiwi said...

If you have nothing against Turkish Cypriots, then let them live in peace.

Anonymous said...

orphic_hymn

If you managed to do a little research to the Cyprus problem (And i don't meant research greek sites) you would be amazed at how wrong you are.

Did your mummy cover your eyes, so you weren't exposed to the TRUTH.

That most of the greeks killed in July 1974 were killed by greeks. I'm not denying that many were killed as part of the intervention. But the greeks deny that they carried out genocide against the turks.

You talk of turkish propaganda, perhaps there is a little. But compare that to the Greek propaganda.

I don't need to justify who is right or wrong, fact of the matter is that i research sites that weren't turkish.

And i know what happened, and all you greeks are getting scared that the truth is coming out. The world will see what barbarians you are (ironic, as that is what greeks call turks).

Just remember the TRNC is not in the control of the greeks, even though they are not recognised, they are safe from greek murderers and it will stay like that. Thats all the matters.

ENOSIS is never going to happen.
OMOSIS is never going to happen. So stop dreaming and give the Turks their right to determine their future.

Orphic Hymn said...

So what happened anonymous.. from previously claiming to have lived the events you now need internet sources to learn your alleged history ??

But while you got one thing right, you obviously fail to understand the problem..
True the pseudo-state is not controlled by the Hellenic Cypriots, BUT the problem is, that its NEITHER controlled by the Turkish Cypriots but by TURKEY'S MILITARY !!!

Unfortunately all google grads never get around to learning about that little issue.

Finally through Cyprus' membership in the EU, ENOSIS has literally been implemented, indirectly of course, but it has been.

As for "omosis" it just proves the truth of the whole matter which is that you know nothing.

Yankee Kiwi said...

If the choice is between knowing nothing and knowing Greek Cypriot xenophobia and nihlism, I prefer knowing nothing. Unfortunately for you, I do know about what depths your government have sunk to in order to maintain the inhuman embargoes on the Turkish Cypriot people. Not just diplomatic isolation, but cultural, sporting, and economic. Why don't you just admit that you're a Turkish Cypriot-hating nihlist and admit that you want the island of Cyprus to be officially part of the Hellenic Republic? As your people more-or-less pissed on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1963 and still continue to do so, you are deserving of nothing less than the total contempt of decent people.

May God bless and defend the Turkish Cypriot people in their struggle against adversity.

Orphic Hymn said...

Me a Turkish Cypriot hater.. you fool, I have said NOTHING against the people ONLY the puppet that poses as their leader and the Turkish government that pulls his strings.. YOU on the other hand have proven to be a racist, an inferiority complexed fool, a liar of the worst kind and your last responce proves all I say..

What happened kiwi, why are YOU so defensive when my comment was directed to the troll titled 'anonymous' ???

Could it be that YOU ARE the individual posting as 'anonymous' to make us believe that this blog has actually gathered some support???

You are actually so pittyfull that not even the members of anca came in your support despite your continuous begging..

Damn fool.

Rachel Salomon said...

If you are not a Turkish Cypriot hater, Orphic, at the very least you are ignorent of Turkish Cypriot suffering. Also, since the Turkish Military is there consentually, ak. the Turkish Cypriots want them there, it is very hard to call it occupation. The Turkish Military would leave if the Turkish Cypriots wanted them to. Under the Annan Plan, they would have left in stages. Unfortunately, the Greek Cypriots rejected that, so now they are stuck with nothing. If you take a look at the babel sight, you would have known that Turkey would never annex Northern Cyprus and that Turkish Cypriots more than any thing yearn for their independence or at the very least, political equality. They will never settle for less than political equality with Greek Cypriots under a unified state. And if they are not granted this, they prefer the status quo to be annexed by Turkey. One thing you fail to realize is despite the presence of the Turkish Military, Turkish Cypriots run their own affairs.

Yankee Kiwi said...

Orphic Hymn, Go to Hell. you can keep Nikos Sampson company.

Orphic Hymn said...

I am ignorant she dares to say !!!

HAHAHAHA.. at least you're funny, I'll give you that much.

Its sad to see that a Uni. student doesn't comprehend the meaning of a simple word like 'occupation'.

'occupation' by definition is =

"the control of a country by military forces of a foreign power"

It is based on this simple definition that the UN has ruled some 100 Resolutions AGAINST the ILLEGAL OCCUPATION of part of the island by a FOREIGN POWER aka Turkey.

If we were to move on to the Annan fiasco, which as already proven you know nothing about, hence why you've constantly avoided to discuss it.
The Annan fiasco is in clear breach of the Geneva Convention (see Geneva Convention art. 49 on settlers in occupied territory) and promotes GENOCIDE by not allowing Hellenic Cypriots that reside in the North to have children, since by doing so, they'd surpass the % of population the fisco suggests and of course, since you ignore it, let me inform you that the ILLEGAL OCCUPATION forces would be allowed to remain on the island INDEFINITELY despite some 100 UN Resolutions that DEMAND their withdrawal!!!

Run their own affairs you say...

Do tell us what your mentors told you about the oil issue..

WHY is it that Talat waited for Turkey's reaction before he said a single thing on the issue, a issue and agreements that were well published since 2003 when they were signed in Cairo. (since I mentioned the oil issue, do look into the fiasco which you support and tell me who had all exploitation rights)..

WHY is it that when some Hellenic Cypriot makes an anti-Turkey comment we see the effects directly in the North and those that pay the price are the Turkish Cypriots.. I remind you of the threats of closing the borders or the recent passport issue which Talat was originally a major supporter..

Once you see that Talat or any Talat in his position is but Turkey's puppet, then you'll get closer to understanding why there is no solution..

A large number of the Turkish Cypriots KNOW that they've been exploited.. why do you fear to admit it ???

Orphic Hymn said...

kiwi..

If I do.. one thing is for sure, I'll definitely see you there

Yankee Kiwi said...

Don't hold your breath.

Yankee Kiwi said...

Well, Orphic Hymn....

I hope you're happy now. You really crossed the line with your slander - both with me and with Rachel. We tried to present the Turkish Cypriot side of the argument dispassionately, and you ended up pushing Rachel and myself too far. In a way, I'm sorry that I allowed myself to give in to your goading when I told you to go to Hell. By allowing myself to sink to your level, I did Racel, and the Turkish Cypriot people a disservice. I guess you can go gloat about this on Macedonia forum...

Orphic Hymn said...

Sorry to break the news to you kiwi, but you've proven who you are well before I did anything..
I remind you your post titled "hatred thy name is Greek" in Israelinsider. this among other rediculous attempts to attack a people you know nothing about.. and all this because you felt humiliated that your twisted views of history were uncovered..

Yankee Kiwi said...

Humiliated? No. And by the way, my views are not twisted. Greek Xenophobia? Now, that's twisted!

It was 'tactfully' pointed out to me by a collegue of mine that there are two particular european nationalities that one should never argue with as its a waste of breath, regardless of the logic used: French and Greek. That observation was certainly proved with you.

Why do Greeks feel so threatened by other nationalities? Not just with Turkish Cypriot self-determination, but by Albanian refugees in Northern Greece and with the Skope government for naming their country REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA? It really counds like a siege mentality and Lord take pity on those who dare to offer a different opinion...

Orphic Hymn said...

Threatened???

You must be kidding!!!
No felling of threat nor any form of intimidation can be seen.
But I see in total incapability of discussing the topic which is Cyprus, you again try to implicate other issues which you know nothing about.

Albanians in are seen in various parts of Hellas and not only in the North.. but your ignorance on what you attempt to debate is seen in your description of them. Albanians are NOT refugees since there was no reason for them to seek refuge. The people are immigrants that came here to work, similar to thousands of others that have done the same not only in Hellas but all over the world.

As for FYROM, the name issue is just the tip of the iceberg but you obviously ignore this. Our problem is not the name itself but the continuous claims on our history and lands.

Now how about going back a couple of posts (to the point before you turned the topic elsewhere to avoid the question) and answer my questions..

Yankee Kiwi said...

Why should I bother when you haven't seriously answered Rachel's questions? Then again, maybe I should not bank on your sincerity as I personally trust Greek Cypriot sincerity just about as far as I could drop-kick a safe - loaded with lead ingots!

Orphic Hymn said...

Why should you bother..
Thats it kiwi, hide behind your finger and hope to God we won't see you.

As for Rachel's questions, I've asked you again what I have failed to address, so that I may do so. But both your and her silence on the issue clearly indicates that there is nothing left.

In my posts in macontheweb, I have managed to teach you both volumes of history, correct all her intentionally manipulated claims and actually prove you both to be ignorant on the island's history.

So, here's your task..

Stop telling us all about how much you hate the Hellenes and Hellenic Cypriots and address my questions, it really is simple..

After that, do indicate exactly what according to you has not been addressed to and I, with great pleasure, will provide you both with yet another free-be history lesson.

Yankee Kiwi said...

Okay: History Lesson.

1. Greeks hate Turks
2. Greeks treat Aegean Sea as their own little duck-pond
3. Greeks killed Turks in Cyprus
4. Greeks kicked out Cretean Turks
5. right-wing Greek nationalism is clearly evident in the Greek mindset
6. Differences in opinion are regarded by Greeks as a war declaration

Orphic Hymn said...

1) the very same can be said vice versa

2) actually based on international treaties which Turkey tends to ignore, the vast majority of the islands and sea which compose the Aegean is our little duck pond.

3)as we've noted several times but you are simply unable to comprehend, its called INTERCOMMUNAL VIOLENCE because people which belonged to BOTH communities died.

4)yup we did, and the Ottomans killed several Hellenes in the process of our liberation, but I'm sure this is either indifferent to you and probably brings you great pleasure to hear or simply somthing which you totally ignore, just like you ignore the Cyprus issue.


5) the difference is that we see right wing in the Hellenes but hard core nationalism which could be compared to ultimate fascism in that of the Turks, hence why Hitler's 'Mein Kampf' was a best seller.

6) HAHAHAHA you got the ethnicities wrong here.. Turks are the ones threatening with war over the Aegean, Turks are the ones theatening with war over Cyprus oil...etc

Now when you decide to post something related to Cyprus by all means do so, but stop being such a troll and implicating anything you can think of. Its getting really rediculous.

Yankee Kiwi said...

This is a fantastic piece of writing published in HALKIN SASI written by Rauf Denktas. I suggest every one should read it.

TO CLAIM OUR 1960 POLITICAL RIGHTS

Some politicians were having doubts about “Our 1960 political rights not being claimed”. I had written about this subject before, but when this subject was brought back on the agenda, I saw benefit in writing it again.

The 1960 Agreements were series of agreements made with England on behalf of Turkish and Greek nations for the benefit of two ethnic groups living in the island. Otherwise it was not given authority to the two communities to rid the colony administration and form a separate state, because these two communities were not after independence as one people. Numerically the Greek Cypriot community was in majority and after uniting Cyprus with the Greek nation that they were separated. As if it was representing the Cyprus people or Cyprus nation, the Greek community reproached the destiny right of Cyprus people in order to unite the island with Greece.

The self-determination right is not for communities but is a right given to Peoples. This right commonly is granted to peoples to rid the colonialism and become independent. For Turkish people, the unification with Greece was another colonialism which was worse than the existing colony administration. If the Greek Cypriot community should be considered a people, so the Turkish community should be considered and able to use its self-determination right.

In 1960’s the Turkish people were insisting on the return of the island back to its original owner, in case England would have to leave the island. Later on double ENOSIS was suggested but had not been accepted. These were conditions that the bi-communal and partnership Cyprus Republic was evolved, it was taken in consideration the designated strategic rights of the two motherlands and constrain order was imposed on sovereignty concept. As Makarios had claim in 1960 that a State was being created but not a nation and they would continue as being part of Greek nation. Therefor no one could condemn Makarios for creating a Cypriotness, because he believed Cyprus was Greek and should remain as Greek.

With 1960 agreements the two nations had agreed on “sui generis” state, that possessed the spirit and the concept of “state of affairs” of to day. By overlooking at this concept to talk about 1960 rights, would take us nowhere. As the constitution that formed our rights even after the coup, that Makarios had organized and abolished it, our fundamental rights that derived from that “sui generis” state concept could not be taken away from us.

Since 1963 every step that we had taken including that of TRNC’s declaration in 1983 was built on these “state of affairs” (fundamental rights) concept. As this “state of affairs” maintained the internal equality, had also granted the rights to establish military bases for England, for Turkey and Greece had granted equal guarantor status equal to that of England’s base entitlement that could not be taken away from them and also this condition prohibited the membership of Cyprus government to become a member of a union or any financial institution where Turkey is not a member.

In case of desolation, the Agreements stipulate the return of “state of affairs”. This does not mean that the constitution should revert to a certain specific clause. This is a superior rule to protect the internal and external equilibrium. The intention of establishment of this “sui generis” was to protect the internal and external balances and as well as protecting the strategic rights of the two nations, Greece and Turkey. In the event of the demolition of the established partnership government, the new constitutional order should be formed to protect the internal and external balances. In other words, the fundamental rights and authorities of the two motherlands must be protected.

To the claims of Makarios that he was the sole representative of Cyprus, the Vise President of Cyprus republic, Dr. Kucuk had responded by establishing a temporary Turkish administration, that Makarios did not recognize, but reminded him “I am here too”. The recognition of this bloody handed terrorist administration as the legal government by the FRIENDLY nations did not allow the formation of a new and balanced reconciliation.

The adoption of “bi-communal, bi-zonal” federation thesis right after the 20 July 1974 Peace Operation was within the accord of 1960’s “state of affairs” concept was suitable for the formation of an internally and externally balanced new partnership. Just as the meetings I had with Clerides between the years of 1968 to 1974, this formation was considered and the changes to the constitution was being accepted and in the process a sense of sensitivity was observed to maintain the internal and external balances. The only reason for Makarios’ refusal of these agreements that were accepted by Clerides and Greece was the maintenance of the internal and external equilibrium.

The only aim of Greece and Greek Cypriots “as if the Cyprus Republic was a normal and unitary state that had no “sui generis” and by forgetting the establishment reasons of it, they spread around lies that “in Cyprus only existed one people and portrayed the Greek side as the Greek Cypriot nation and us the Turkish Cypriots as minority within this fictitious nation so that they could enforce the abolishment of the Guarantor system. Despite all the damages they caused on the 1960 “sui generis” partnership republic of Cyprus state, we as the Turkish side since 1960 showed minimum sensitivity to protect that balance. The “what ever you are so are we” policy that formed the fundamentals rules of the agreements was followed, and our insistence on this policy was perceived by some as 40 years long mistakes. If this policy had not produced any success was because the opposition of the time had believed that Cyprus problem would be solved by making changes to the constitution and also they believed their Greek brothers had agreed on those changes long time ago. They could not comprehend why we were defending the concept of “state of affairs” they only believed in Akel but not in Turkey.

Even during the Gali Ideas Suggestions these balances were protected and despite the insistence of the Greek side we succeeded to have talks for Cyprus government’s EU membership to be left to the common government after the Cyprus problem was solved. We knew the aim of Greece and Greek Cypriots that was the destabilization of the Turkish/Greek power balance, but we could not be deceived by their combined conspiracy. When we arrived to 1983 every one had witnessed that the Greek side was not for a federative system that would based on a partnership, but under a fake title they wanted to have the control of the whole of the island then we had decided to say “what ever you are so are we” and in order to protect the balances that embraced by “state of affairs” we left the door opened for a partnership order and declared the Northern Cyprus of Turkish Republic.

The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is a legal institution which encompasses all its power and authorities within its structure from its constitutional rights that derives from 1960 agreements. It is a consolidated form of our political equality and sovereignty rights. It would be an ironic scenario to ask for all these rights that were given to us by 1960 agreements to be returned to us by the usurper Greek Cypriots which had expelled us from all the organs of Cyprus government of 1960. We had the right to conjointly rule the 1960 Cyprus government. Now we are governed by the rules of our own state. What ever the Greek Cypriots are so are we. A cardinal mistake had been committed by accepting the Annan Plan (Now they are admitting they were deceived) and before Turkey became EU member our people had said yes to this fake plan which stipulated the membership of Greek side to EU. Now the Greek side skillfully is using this against us. The remedy for this, the people has to stay determined not to become member in EU before Turkey becomes a full member of EU. The “sui generis” that the 1960 agreements stipulates the partnership only would be possible between the two peoples and two sovereign states with the condition that strategic rights of each nationalities, that is Turkish nation and Greek nation, would be protected.

Reverting back to 1960 agreements that caused us a lot of pain and misery, I don’t think that would be a sensitive move.