It is an interesting fact that people living in dictator ships have more rights than people living in a democratic country like the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC). Indeed, Cuba receives millions of tourists every year because many countries do have direct flights to their country. However, a democratic TRNC does not have such a privilege because of the unjust isolation imposed on them; Turkish Cypriots can not fly to any country directly other than Turkey and no other country has direct flights to the TRNC. A Cuban can accept mail directly and can receive telephone calls. But a Turkish Cypriot can only make telephone calls and receive mail via Turkey. Dictatorships like Cuba do not have fair elections and have been internationally condemned for their human rights record. Yet what has the democratic TRNC been condemned for? They have been and still are punished because Turkey intervened to preserve their existence in 1974.
Starting in 1963 up until 1974, the Greek Cypriots orchestrated a campaign in favor of the unification with Greece in violation of the Treaty of Guarantee and other international agreements. During this same period of time, thousands of Turkish Cypriots were massacred by their Greek Cypriot neighbors. Nevertheless, it was the Turkish Cypriots who voted in favor of the Annan Peace Plan---the most elaborate plan on the Cyprus issue which was supported by the entire international community.
With the Annan Plan, the European Union was supposed to have all of Cyprus enter into the European Union as a united island. Unfortunately, because the Greek Cypriots voted against the Annan Peace plan, this did not happen. Nevertheless, it was the Greek Cypriot side that was rewarded with European Union membership, while the side that actually cooperated with the international community by voting in favor of the Annan Plan, the Turkish Cypriots, continued to suffer under unjust isolation.
It is a sad but ironic anomaly that a democracy which has voted in favor of peace continues to be treated worse than dictatorships, rogue states, and people who have voted against peace. The fact that the international community, especially the European Union, have not kept their promises to change this injustice is a travesty. Nevertheless, despite the feelings of hurt, pain, disappointment, and betrayal that most Turkish Cypriots feel by being left in limbo, they are yearning the day when justice will awaken from its slumber and become a reality.
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Amen to that, Rachel.
Tassos Papadopoulos had said in the news media that he wants to help the Turkish Cypriots improve their ecomonic situation, but at the same time is firmly opposed to anything that would upgrade Northern Cyprus' status. Sounds like political double-talk to me.
It really does sound like double-talk. I am on some facebook chats with a couple of Greeks who actually want to have a unified Cyprus, but they still can not accept that due to the island's history Turkish Cypriots need special representation in government in order to maintain their security.
You could always try asking them what they would think had the G/C's been the minority instead. That switch in perspective can be a useful tool...
I used being in Jewish as an example. I told them that in countries where my existence was never threatened, such as the US, you don't see Jews feeling the need to have their own state. However, in countries like Russia and Nazi Germany, many Jews felt like they needed their own state because their existence felt threatened. I told him that until he convinces the Turkish Cypriots that their existence is not threatened without their being those protections, then his arguement is a mute point. He actually responded pretty well to that, even acknowledging that Greek attitudes were a major part of the Cyprus problem.
Others are not displaying open-mindedness. I just found out that on WIKIMAPIA, someone is using my name fraudulently to spout anti-TRNC comments on map locations (such as the large TRNC flag dominating Lefkosa). It even includes slanders against you, so please don't think I had anything to do with it.
You claim:
"thousands of Turkish Cypriots were massacred"
Officially the pseudo-state has claimed that there are some 500 Turkish Cypriots "missing", so where did you get the "thousands" ??
Kiwi, I am not surprised. Please don't tell me about their slanders any more. I am starting school this Wenesday. I don't have time for people "who don't even approach my heels," as my Russian Hebrew tutor in Middle School would have said.
Orphic, there is a difference between massacred and missing. Missing means we don't know what happened to them. At the moment, it is 500. However, thousands of Turkish Cypriots were massacred and are confirmed dead between 1963-1974.
Those refered to as "missing" are the villagers of Tochni, Snadallari..etc. While known to have been killed, since their remains haven't been found are titled as "missing".
Anyway, you didn't answer my question, where did you get the "thousands" ??
The Times and The Guardian reported on Aug. 21, 1974 that in the village of Tokhni on Aug. 14, 1974 all the Turkish Cypriot men between the ages of 13 and 74, except for eighteen who managed to escape, were taken away and shot.
There were also reports that in Zyyi on the same day all the Turkish-Cypriot men aged between 19 an 38 were taken away and were never seen again and that Greek-Cypriots opened fire on the Turkish-Cypriot neighborhood of Paphos killing men, women, and children indiscriminately.
On July 23, 1974, the Washington Post reported that "in a Greek raid on a small Turkish village near Limassol 36 people out of a population of 200 were killed. The Greeks said that they had been given orders to kill the inhabitants of the Turkish villages before the Turkish forces arrived." The Times and The Guardian also reported on the killings.
On July 28, 1974 the New York Times reported that 14 Turkish-Cypriot men had been shot in Alaminos. On July 24, 1974 France Soir reported that "the Greeks burned Turkish mosques and set fire to Turkish homes in the villages around Famagusta. Defenseless Turkish villagers who have weapons live in an atmosphere of terror and they evacuate their homes and go and live in tents in the forest. The Greeks' actions are a shame to humanity."
On July 22, Turkish Prime Minister Ecevit called upon the United Nations to "stop the genocide of Turkish Cypriots" and declared, "Turkey has accepted a cease-fire, but will not allow Turkish Cypriots to be massacred."
On 28th December 1963 the London Daily Express carried the following report: "We went tonight into the sealed-off Turkish Cypriot Quarter of Nicosia in which 200 to 300 people had been slaughtered in the last five days. We were the first Western reporters there and we have seen sights too frightful to be described in print. Horror so extreme that the people seemed stunned beyond tears."
On 14th January 1964 "Il Giorno" of Italy reported: "Right now we are witnessing the exodus of Turkish Cypriots from the villages. Thousands of people abandoning homes, land, and herds. Greek Cypriot terrorism is relentless. This time the rhetoric of the Hellenes and the statues of Plato do not cover up their barbaric and ferocious behaviour."
The Greek newspaper Eleftherotipia published an interview with Sampson on 26th February 1981 in which he said "Had Turkey not intervened I would not only have proclaimed ENOSIS - I would have annihilated the Turks in Cyprus."
http://www.middleeastinfo.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=6675
According to the above source:
"During the period of 1963 – 1974, thousands of Turkish Cypriots were killed, wounded or maimed by the Greek Cypriots and 30,000 were uprooted from their homes."
This is from the unbiased Middle East Information Center.
Touche, I theenk....
Bravo, Rachel.
You continue to avoid giving me a direct answer..
I asked WHERE DOES THIS NUMBER COME FROM and all you're able to provide are the events which took place AFTER the invasion and do not support the number you've claimed..
As for the Dec. 1963 quote, proof that its nothing more than an exagerration of the events if not an invented or intentionally distorted quote, are the official records which prove that from Dec. 63 - Aug. 64 the total of deaths were 350 Turkish Cypriots and approx. 200 Hellenic Cypriots..
Finally since when did BIGTURK aka BGTurk, bg_turk...etc become an objective source of info and why did you attribute these quotes to the Middle East Information Center when his post has a link to a pseudo-state site and was critisized for his choice of source?
Just because a website is based in a country that you do not recognize, does not mean that the website provides false information. Maybe I've misjudged you, Orphic Hymn, because you're coming across a lot stupider than I've given you credit for.
Seriously, Orphic. I don't like most Arabic newsnetworks, because they show a certain bias. However, that does not mean that I have not seen good articles written by Al Jazeera and Al Ahram and the Lebanon Daily Star that do present their arguement well.
Just because you don't like these facts does not make them not facts. I have actually presented some of these same facts to actual Greek Cypriots in my facebook group, Cyprus Debates, and they actually get it. They might not agree with every point, but they see certain validities in my arguements. I am even becoming friends with some of these Greek Cypriots. Really nice and smart university students. The debate group is creating a bond for the Americans, Frenchmen, Turkish Cypriots, Greek Cypriots, Turks, and Greeks that are involved. Might I add that I find this facebook group a lot more productive than debating someone as close-minded as you!
I suggest you stop the comparisons with the children of facebook who obviously know very little about the issue and start addressing the facts you've manipulated. You neglet to see that that is the proper conduct in any form of debate. To address the other's questions with actual answers.
So lets continue with why do you avoid giving me a simple answer to the question WHERE DOES THIS NUMBER COME FROM ??
I already gave you a direct citation from where I got it, Orphic. Why don't you just check out the website? And these people are not children. They are university students. Just because these Greeks and Greek Cypriots are open-minded enough to consider the Turkish Cypriot perspective and actually care about a solution, versus perpetuating the status quo, does not make them into children. You are a supporter of Greeks. I can understand why you would want to put down me or kiwi, but why insult the Greek and Greek Cypriot university students in my debate Cyprus group? We are the future and we are coming up with real solutions. This one Greek Cypriot girl, Deanna, whom I think should be the next Greek Cypriot president, fully supports the recognition of the TRNC, so long as all Greek Cypriot properties are compensated and the Turkish Army leaves. However, she also supports the Greek Army leaving. She favors a two-state solution, where the island unites under the EU, with freedom of movement between both sides of the island. She also recognizes Turkish Cypriot suffering. And this girl is a Greek Cypriot university student studying in the US. If even Greek Cypriots can accept parts of my arguement, while you can't accept any thing I say, it just shows me how out of line you are.
Out of line...
Sorry Rachel but you haven't provided anything, just a bunch of quotes that make no reference to exact number (except the Dec. 63' one which is an exaggeration or simply manipulated)
So the question has actually remained unanswered.
I keep on hearing about this group and the alleged Uni. students, well Uni. doesn't indicate knowledge of the Cypriot issue as you've now learned. Just look at the fallacies and inacuracies you've posted and as I recall you are in Uni.
Only the attempted erasing of the island's Hellenic past is more than enough.
As for Hellenes and Hellenic Cypriots abroad, sorry but these people don't have the best relation to historic accurcy. For example, I can tell you about an incident in which one of these Uni. students actually believed that Xena (the TV series) is a true depiction of his history..
Hollywood and revisionism do have that kind of effect.
As for partition, I honestly doubt that this Deanna is Cypriot and if she is she's been totally alienated to what the Cypriot issue is all about..
But you keep talking about this 'group'.. so where is it, where can we find these intellectuals that would prefer to see their ancestral lands under the pseudo-state's rule, where are these intellectuals that support that the two communities can't live together ??
I shall post it again. It was at the end of those quotes, if you actually read what I wrote.
http://www.middleeastinfo.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=6675
According to the above source:
"During the period of 1963 – 1974, thousands of Turkish Cypriots were killed, wounded or maimed by the Greek Cypriots and 30,000 were uprooted from their homes."
This is from the unbiased Middle East Information Center. There, you could have had it before if you actually looked, but you now got the info again.
As for this group, I am not going to tell you where it is, for I don't want you to disrupt the harmony that I have worked so hard to build up with these Greek Cypriot and Greek university students. And what the hell! Deanna is Greek Cypriot. She is from Limassol, she is as Greek Cypriot as you can get. And I looked at her account. She is in multiple Greek and Greek Cypriot groups and has a lot of Greek and Greek Cypriot friends. Just because she is liberal and open minded does not make her non-Greek and a foreigner on Cyprus. I am very insulted that you put down my friend like that. Just goes to show how closed minded you are.
Lets see,
your source,
the so called Middle East Information Center, well sorry but there is absolutely no indication that it does accept BIGTURK's , aka BGTurk, aka bg_turk...etc's source of info hence why his fellow member of the FORUM!!! critisized his use of the specific source..
(by the way, I'm also a member of the forum in question so don't consider it a big deal)
So in short, you're telling me that you just copy/pasted a forum post written by a well known propagandist (I can list a number of forums he posts similar BS in), without doing any form of research what so ever on its accuracy, having nothing more to back up this statement, other than his word on it and a link to the pseudo-state..
Nice... and to think that it was you that dared to talk about source citations..
As for your 'friend' noone insulted her, I simply noted a well proven fact, the Hellenes and Hellenic Cypriots raised in the diaspora, know very little about their history.
Finally as for your group, well I'd love to see these people actually supporting the partition which you promote and no it doesn't have to do with 'open-mindness' as you try to present it. Had you actually ever talked to a Cypriot you would have known this.
YOu constantly make me view you as a propagandist instead of someon that actually comprehends the problem and this little quote indicates that all along I've been right about what you represent and strive to promote:
Does this sound familiar?
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who not only gave me inspiration
"but also an important pointer regarding how to promote our cause within the American public opinion."
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and to think that you felt insulted...
Salomon and Dean Thomas are liars. Period. THey love to fuel flames to counter peace movements on Cyprus. They are Apartheidists.
That's rich! Calling me and Rachel supporters of apartheid. What do you call forcing T/C's into tiny enclaves in the 1960's? Peace and friendship? Those enclaves were like the South African bantustans. The G/C's started this process of apartheid, and that was formalized with the intervention of 1974. You reaped what you sewed, Anonymous, and that was a result of Greek Cypriot apartheid and ethnic cleansing policies.
Orphic Hymn get over yourself!
Greek Cypriot people have never liked Turkish Cypriots. Furthermore Greeks have a big thing against Turks full stop and always have done.
YOU are the racist one. Stop trying to twist everything around. You never wanted us in Cyprus anyways, it was because of YOUR people that all this happened. Why can't any of you face facts?
If it wasn't for the Greek people in charge you still would have your island, thanks to you guys we had NO CHOICE BUT TO BEG FOR HELP from Turkey. You would of done the same thing had it been the other way around, so stop kidding yourself on whos to blame.
You dont care about Turkish Cypriots, their rights or what they've been through. All you care about is land "I want my grandad's land" blah blah blah. Funny nobody thought of that before hand. Thank GOD Turkey came to save us, weather or not they came for the right reasons is a different matter, even if they came because they saw it as an excuse is besides the point. GREEK PEOPLE GAVE THEM THAT EXCUSE! And we've suffered because of that also not just you, in many aspects.
Have you for one second thought about what its been like for the Turkish Cypriots? (I suppose since theyre Turkish it doesnt matter)You have no idea what its has been like for us in the North, we have come a long way, and we have suffered ALOT thanks to your government's stupidness, prejudice and selfishness.
I just can't believe that you see Turkey invading as something thats not justified. You are out of your mind man. If you play with fire you'll get burned, you merely got singed yet you still cry about it like it was the Turkish Cypriot peoples fault. Considering what the Greek Cypriots were doing then you got what was coming to you. If it wasn't for Turkey we'd eventually ended up extinct, wiped off the face of the earth, so don't try twisting everything around and think of it logically.
Rachel is sticking up for us, at last someone is. People have been doing that for you from day one, so just shut your mouth and stop criticising everything she has to say. Whats the matter? You scared that people might see things differently? If not then why are you so determined to shut her up or prove her wrong. Stop acting like a baby.
We've all been through shit, the only reason you think you have more right is because you've always thought of Cyprus as YOURS. It wasn't and it will never be just yours so just accept that.
When people stick up for your people I'm sure you don't see it as countering peace movements, its not what this is about! This is about what my people have been through. People have been hearing about your side of the story for how long? Its time someone heard ours. As far as most people are concerned we nor our land exist so just let us be, we haven't had a voice in so long its ok for one person to stick up for us. We have suffered just as much so just let this girl do what shes doing.
Stop intimidating her and calling her a child. It's you whos a child for not even letting someone talk just because what they're saying doesn't suit you.
This is very interesting. Orphic Hymn, why are you so defensive?
If you're right then you have nothing to worry about, let the girl have her say.
Great blog by the way.
As you can see, Orphic Hymn, there are more voices than just Rachel and I calling for the Turkish Cypriots to be treated fairly. And by thae way, that's 'fairly' as defined in the disctionary, not 'fairly' as defined by the Greek Orthrodox Church and EOKA...
Long live TRNC
Voices.. HAHAHAHA
so you begged and whined and got 2 out of.. how many.. 5,6..10 members in there to celebrate the effect of pseudo-state brainwashing and their limited intellect..
Hurray for kiwi, you should be given a prize.
What should one tell this wanna-be Turkish Cypriot.. how on earth does one inform the truth of the matter to brainwashed individuals that dare to say:
>>weather or not they came for the right reasons is a different matter, even if they came because they saw it as an excuse is besides the point<<
How do you explain to these people that what they've went through the last 30 years and what they will continue to go through, is due to the pseudo-state's terror tactics against any rational individual that calls it for what it is and its sole purpose of implementing Turkey's geopolitical plans ??
How many of you internet scholars know about the morning of the 25th of Dec. 1963, how many of you know the published in Turkey partition maps prior to the London Conference of Jan. 15th 1964, how many of you know of the direct orders from Turkey to demand partition during the conference in question??
How do you explain to these internet scholars, all the google grads that can't comprehend a word like 'propaganda' that what they're promoting is far from the truth..
How do you explain to them the true history of the issue when they don't hear their own representatives that they have been USED but instead promote invented interviews when Talat is uncovered for what he is, promote books and consider authors that change their own written statements to justify the pay-check.. as accurate.
Is there really any hope for brainwashed individuals like these.. ??
I'd say no, but some of us would prefer to keep trying to give them what some have refused to give them..
THE TRUTH!!!
LOL A wanna-be Turkish Cypriot?!? Please, I was born and raised in Cyprus till my Mum got the courage to leave everything behind and move to London because of the state we were in.
I know a lot of Greek Cypriots and none of them want us there and they make it so clear even if it's with sarcastic comments, I know how they feel. Even if we are brainwashed...so are half of your people.
What do you mean about people who "dare" say:
"weather or not they came for the right reasons is a different matter, even if they came because they saw it as an excuse is besides the point"...funny how you left out the "GREEK PEOPLE GAVE THEM THAT EXCUSE!"
Anyways, I know exactly what Turkeys done, that should show you I'm not brainwashed. I know! But please stop seeing Turkish Cypriots in the same light as Turkey. We're not! We have suffered time and time again, but this wouldn't of happened had it not been for what happened back then and you know it.
Are you trying to tell me that the EOKA didn't exist or that Greek Cypriot's loved the Turkish Cypriot's? Get real please.
I don't understand what you are trying to get at, I'm not the most intellectual person, no, but that doesn't mean I'm not entitled to my opinion nor does it make my opinion not valid or not acceptable. I've seen the effects of what happened on my family. I also know the mentality of the Greek people and exactly what the majority think of Turkish people. I hear it all the time how they're "superior" because they're in the EU. Or how so and so want's their great grandfathers house back. Or how Cyprus is Greek and how they're one day going to get it all back and they even go as far as saying they want Istanbul back. This is not just about wanting land back it's more about racism towards the Turks.
I know what propaganda is Orphic, I'm not dumb, but what Rachel is doing is just telling the story from a different point of view, that doesn't make it propaganda.
Greek people DIDN'T want us there, Turkey did come and TURKISH CYPRIOT'S HAVE suffered because of you and because of what Turkey did. We've been used and abused by everyone. It's not like we can hold a grudge or turn our backs to Turkey because had they not done what they did we wouldn't exist today. There was no way we could of got ourselves out the mess we were in. Can you not understand what kind of situation we are/were in?
Would you not of expected Greece to do the same for you had it been the other way round? Would it of been so bad then? I doubt it. So please don't tell me about brainwashing or propaganda.
I hope Turkey just forgets about the EU what good has come out of the EU anyway. We've seen what the leader's are like and what they're good for. I'd much rather Turkey be in Cyprus then live in my country with the rights of a refugee.
I would love for there to be peace but from all the Greek people I know and their attitudes towards Turkish people I know this is highly unlikely. Maybe your oblivious to all this but I know for a fact that Greek people are racist towards the Turks. I've seen it many, many, many times. I even used to work for Greeks who would boast they had Turks working for them and laugh about it. I'm not saying all this because of what I heard through Turkish people, I'm talking from experience working/knowing Greek people and I know better then to believe you about "the truth", I can judge for myself thank you.
"I'd say no, but some of us would prefer to keep trying to give them what some have refused to give them..
THE TRUTH!!!"
Oh yeah. As usual you bully and belittle people and then you turn around and act like your trying to do me a favour. If you really care then make your own blog and try and explain to people your argument instead of wasting your time bullying and intimidating people which is making your argument seem anything but genuine.
Just a suggestion...
OK anonymous..
While I won't compare you to Turks since they are by far the most historically ignorant people I've ever come accross, you fail to see that while you claim to be objective and know the facts, the above quote indicates the brainwashing I'm talking about..
So you know you were used, you know who's actually to blaim but you still mention EOKA.. sorry but it doesn't add up.
You mention EOKA but avoid to make reference to VOLCAN and TMT.. why not mention them, are they not those that instigated the Turkish Cypriots into intercommunal violence through propaganda, with its climax seen after the TMT propaganda bombing of the Turkish Postal Office in Nicosia and continued to instigate hatred and do anything in its power to stop the process of the communities living in peace ??
Is this the purpose you find not worthy of mentioning when you try to pin-point the fault on the Hellenic Cypriots ?
Do tell me the exact number of attacks EOKA A' commited against Turkish Cypriots and DO NOT include those appointed by the British as auxiliary police, nor should you perceive political nor British military targets within Turkish Cypriot regions as such. I want the exact number of intentional attacks against innocent Turkish Cypriots.
If you know the issue as you claim you do, then you'll agree that there were none prior to TMT instigation. Actually Hellenic Cypriot victims of the EOKA A' attacks surpass the number of British and Turkish Cypriots.
Your intelligence is not the issue here, but when you put up a blog or enter public debate knowing that your ill perception of the issue may have the wrong effect on those totally ignorant, then, you should be held accountable for this ignorace.
You claim to know the mentality of the Hellenes yet claim that we feel 'superior' due to some membership in the EU.. Sorry, but that is actually the most rediculous thing I have ever heard. Nationalism (since thats the only thing I understand when someone mentions 'superiority') does not derive from some rediculous organization.
But then again what you perceive as nationalism (under the ill modern interpretation of the word) has nothing to do with the EU, pride in one's nation, culture, history..etc is a totally different issue.
Your claim is similar to stating that the Turkish inferiority complex, derives from their not being accepted in the EU which is again a total fallacy. Turks either in or out of the EU will continue to have the feeling of underachivement, but thats a different topic.
You mention knowing what propaganda is.
Well you've missed the discussion we've had with Rachel otherwise you would have understood it was directed towards her that questioned my calling her a propagandist.
But you too seem to ignore the actual meaning of the term, so let me provide..
propagandist=
a person involved in producing or spreading propaganda
propaganda=
information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.
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So in short, what you call a "different point of view" has been proven to be based on ignorance of history, manipulation of events and quotes and selective choice of sources.
THAT my friend is titled propaganda since had her "different point of view" been objective she would have never resorted to the above mentioned actions nor would have ever felt the need to slander a nation/people to prove her point.
You state:
>>Greek people DIDN'T want us there, Turkey did come and TURKISH CYPRIOT'S HAVE suffered because of you and because of what Turkey did.<<
Why the totally different title to the populations of the island, while they may be of Hellenic ethnic background and you may be of Turkish, I fail to understand why you'd deprive them of their right to bear the title Cypriot and title them as Hellenes (Greek)..
But this approach actually indicates that you have been affected by the brainwashing I've mentioned.. I've asked kiwi but he's failed to provide an answer, so I'll ask you.
How can you claim they don't want you there (probably implying ethnic cleansing which is rediculous) when its actually the Hellenic Cypriots that have done in one decade, far more than the pseudo-state has done for you in the last 30 yrs?
How can you claim this when its your so-called leaders that deprive you from the right to attend the Pan-Cypriot Trade Union,
how can you claim this when its your so-called leaders that threaten to close the borders and by doing so, deprive from some 10.000 Turkish Cypriots their right to far better wages and food on their table,
how can you claim that when its your so-called leader that once promoted the notion of obtaining Hellenic Cypriot passports (probably hoping that TMT B' would instigate similar events to the past) and now seeing that everything is going well and that the communities have no problem in their everyday interactions, claims you should give them back ???
How can you claim this when its more than simply obvious that THEY don't want you to get along ???
You mention "the mess we were in".. Have you actually given it any though on why and how you got into the 'mess' in questionand who actually took advantage of you for their own interests ?
If you had, then the animosity (if any) which you express would have been directed to a totally different group of people..
You mention Hellas doing the same if it was the other way around.. To answer your question NO, I wouldn't.
While I hate those that planned and implemented the pogrom of 55' (in order to stop Hellenic support towards the Hellenic Cypriot desire to rid the British yoke and achieve ENOSIS) and even though I know that specific circles of the Muslim minority of Thrace were implicated, I'd never wish that Hellas did anything against them in order to assist those that suffered during the pogrom.
OK, so we broaden the topic and discuss EU..
Depends on how you actually see it, you claimed to live in the UK.
Never think for a minute that the democratic values you've come to accept in the UK are applied in Turkey.
If wanting to see a change of mentality towards treatment of minorities and your own people is too much to ask, hey, I say stop the membership talks now.
If the Turkish people prefer spending 3yrs in jail for critisizing their own goverment, seeing their neighbors dragged to court for writting 'happy new year' in their own tongue and watching the government illegally confiscate lands simply because the owner chose to believe in a different God than the one you chose.. sorry but NO, they're simply not EU material, for they're stuck in the middle ages if not further back in time.
Well as for your former employees I can't say a thing since I have to doubt it. If they were racist against you, I can honestly tell you that you'd still be looking for a job instead of taking their money cause thats how they'd see it. But generalizations and judging a people based on a single event is wrong. Its similar to me titling all Turks racist towards Hellas and Hellenes simply because I've encountered a large number of internet trolls that find pride in mentioning 1453 or the invasion of Cyprus. I've came accross an uncountable number of idiots that actually find pride in stating that they killed Isaak and Solomou in Cyprus.. In short, idiots exist in all cultures and in every race or ethnicity if you prefer.
bully, belittle, intimidate...
Little ol' me does all the above???
There's one thing I despise and thats not so much the historically ignorant but those that promote this ignorance. Making my own blog isn't something that interests me but serfing the web and correcting fallacies related to my hisory is. If in the process of doing so, some feel belittled and that their ego has been humbled, well thats their problem.
They should have taken the extra class before manipulating my history.
"…the fanatic Greeks are gradually approaching to ethnic genocide…" Washington Post, 17.02.1964
…Archbishop Makarios, robed and bearded cleric who serves as President of Cyprus, has a Byzantine talent for equitation…His government deliberately provoked the clashes and is bent upon the extermination of the Turkish population…" Washington Post, 16.02.1964, article by Robert H. Estabrooh.
On Jan. 2, 1964, the Daily Telegraph wrote: "The Greek Cypriot community should not assume that the British military presence can or should secure them against Turkish intervention if they persecute the Turkish Cypriots. We must not be a shelter for double-crossers."
…On the Greek Cypriot side the extremists resent President Makarios’ acceptance of British intervention and would have preferred the fighting to continue, leading to the extermination of the Turkish community…" The Times, 04.01.1964.
On Jan. 1, 1964, the Daily Herald reported: "When I came across the Turkish Cypriot homes they were an appalling sight. Apart from the walls they just did not exist. I doubt if a napalm attack could have created more devastation. Under roofs which had caved in I found a twisted mass of bed springs, children's cots, and grey ashes of what had once been tables, chairs and wardrobes. In the neighboring village of Ayios Vassilios I counted 16 wrecked and burned out homes. They were all Turkish Cypriot. In neither village did I find a scrap of damage to any Greek Cypriot house."
"…Once there had been Turks there too but I could not discover what had become of them. A couple of hours later I got through more roadblocks to reach the village of Aghios Vassilios and stumbled on a ghastly scene. Apparently 13 Turks of the predominantly Greek community had gathered for safety, as they thought, in a fine modern villa. At once they came under attack. Fire from shotguns, rifles, sub-machine guns and revolvers raked the walls. Finally one of the attackers climbed to the roof, tore away the big red tiles and began pitching hand grenades onto the helpless people below. Eleven were killed instantly. The other two, one a deaf mute, feigned death and managed to crawl away to safety in darkness. At yet another township, Skilloura, I discovered almost the entire Turkish quarter burned out and still smoking. Greek women were looting among smouldering ruins that were almost too hot to tread over. Far down the coast at Lefka (a Turkish town) I heard that five British families with 12 children including some out for the Christmas holidays from boarding schools in Britain – had been – stranded for 12 days on a nearby hill called the Black Mountain. They live among several thousand Turks who work in the copper mines there. Mr. W. J. Rowlands, a mining supervisor, from near Newport, Monmouthshire, who has a house on the hill and speaks fluent Turkish, volunteered to guide us through the lines together with a British doctor stationed near Lefka town. It was the most tense part of my journey. After talking our way through the Greek barricades we had to move slowly across about a mile of wild country. Guns poked menacingly out from sandbags and stone strongpoints on every hillock and followed us every inch of the way. But Chief Inspector Husain Kavaz, the Turkish police chief who served in the British Army during the war, told us his people were starving. They had nothing to eat, he said, except oranges and a little barley. Babies particularly were in grave danger as there was no milk. Chief Inspector Kavaz implored us, as many other had done along the way, to ask the British, the United Nations, the International Red Cross – anyone – to send help. Quickly…" News of the World, 05.01.1964, reported by Noyes Thomas.
All these from non-Turkish sources!!!
Go Rachel. Long live TRNC!
The distinguished philosopher, Michael Moran, of Sussex University, made the following diagnosis of Greek Cypriot attitudes[142]: "It was because they were under a kind of ideological spell, a collective mental condition similar to what Marxists used to call "false-consciousness" that the Greek Cypriots could embark upon their particular course of action in December 1963 with all the zeal and confidence they did. Brainwashed through at least a hundred years of school-teaching and sermonising into a set of beliefs pathologically at odds with any plausible account of historical and political realities; lacking contact with a counterbalancing tradition of rational criticism; for the most part incapable of ironic scepticism towards theological obfuscation—the Greek Cypriot leaders were effectively de-sensitised to the equally important rights of the Turkish Cypriots. In this way they were able to treat their Turkish compatriots with such consistent and irrational abuse, hardly noticing that this was in fact what they were doing."
Turkish Cypriots appealed to the Guarantor powers for help, but only Turkey was willing to make any effective response." On 20 July 1974 Turkey intervened under Article IV of the Treaty of Guarantee"—(UK Foreign & Commonwealth Office doc. CPS/75, Jan, 1987). The Greek newspaper Eleftherotipia published an interview with Nicos Sampson on 26 February 1981 in which he said "Had Turkey not intervened I would not only have proclaimed ENOSIS—I would have annihilated the Turks of Cyprus
The United Nations, the Commonwealth, and the rest of the world have put political expediency before principle, and failed to condemn the appalling behaviour of the Greek Cypriots. Greek Cypriots are guilty of attempted genocide in violation of Articles 2(a), (B) and © and Articles 3(a), (B), ©, (d) and (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention, but no action has ever been taken against them. Instead they have been rewarded by being treated as the Government of all Cyprus. The Turkish Cypriots by contrast were frozen out of the UN, the Commonwealth and almost every other international organisation, and were not even allowed to be heard when important decisions affecting their future were made.
This act of betrayal by the United Nations itself has enabled the Greek Cypriots for more than forty years to treat the Turkish Cypriots as a mere community, to take most of the international aid for themselves, to embargo Turkish Cypriot trade and communications with the outside world, to occupy the Cyprus chair in all international institutions, and to convince the world that they, and not the Turkish Cypriots are the injured party.
Even today, despite having voted to accept the Annan Plan in April 2004, the Turkish Cypriots are still frozen out of their rightful place in the world, and still suffer a wholly unjustified embargo on their trade and communications. What have the Turkish Cypriots done to deserve such treatment?
Nice to see that you have your own personal opinion on the events..
You actually copy/pasted questionable quotes from some 5-10 different propaganda sites..
Nice.
When you're able to present something of your own or the actual newspaper links for the alleged quotes, we can continue.
Orphic Hymn,
Even if you were shown actual film footage of the killings of Turkish Cypriots by Greek Cypriots, you'd just dismiss it as a Hollywood production. Nothing can really be presented that can dilute your hatred of the Turkish Cypriot people.
I know! According to him the Greek Cypriots did nothing wrong...at all!
They played no part in anything. They wanted Enosis but this had nothing to do with the killing of Turkish Cypriots. He might as well say the EOKA didn't exist.
Everything is lies apart from what he says. He get's mad when people "dare" question HIS people and states how Rachel desacrates dead people then goes on to tell people on sites how the father of the kids in the bathtub was the real murderer and that Denktas and the TMT placed the bodies in the bathtub while Denktas said something along the lines of "these bodies will be of use to us, through them the whole world will see..." he then continues to JOKE about this by saying how there was a survivor who was also in the bathroom (which he wasn't), and then suggests how he must of been hiding in a pot.
Though funnily enough when its the other way around and we quote things that were said by people it is inaccurate/questionable, because it's written by Turk's so this makes it "propaganda". Yet the thing's he claimed was written by Greek's so this ofcrouse means it's "THE TRUTH". Oh and by the way the guy who took the picture apparently confesses to this in a "drunken" state while in Athens to the writer of the book.
The fact of the matter is Orphics only intention is keeping the story as people know it and Orphic sound's more of a propagandist then anyone else.
Who do YOU work for Orphic? Even the people in your Macedonia forum were surprised at your "work"...
Anyway's lets have a look at some Greek Cypriot propaganda, it's not like it doesn't exist..
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/cyprus-rape.htm
I think 'Orphic Hymn' must be an acronym:
Obnoxious Right-winger Pushing Hellanization In Cyprus - Hopelessly Yelling Malicious Nonsense
I agree 100%. Orphic is all that anonymous describes. AND HE IS THE TRUE PROPAGANDIST! No normal person would spend so much time trying to put down a university student.
So another individual that knows nothing about the issue he's attempting to debate, nothing more than copy/pastes off questionable sources. NO real facts..
So anonymous, why don't you ask your mentors in acta to inform you of who Hasan Yusuf Gudum is? and when they do finally learn all you ignore about the night in question since HE IS the only alleged eye-witness.
Why don't you explain why Nihat Ilhan hasn't persued the law suit as he claimed he would some 3 years ago, since Genaris' book isn't accurate?
Why hasn't Hasan Baran, the very man that took the photo come open and reject his quoted statement's accuracy based on his intoxication which you and those of Rauf's propaganda machine seem to give too much value to?
Why don't you explain WHY the article written to counter these statements was written by someone who's interest in the continuation of the current status is more than obvious. Tom Roche IS a shareholder and 'consultant' of Hillcrest Estates, a company that illegally sells occupied lands??
As for Holdwater, I guess propaganda is only valueable when there are ignorant individuals reading and believing it. Hence why you present it as a source. It would be interesting to hear why he's never once responded to a single one of my e-mails..
Probably because like you stating the EXACT number of Turkish Cypriots killed in the 50's, which has been already requested above and is also mentioned by Holdwater, is something you can not do because that would end your little fairy-tale and would prove that only AFTER the formation of TMT did intercommunal violence occur.
You just as he, can not provide any single intentional targeting of Turkish Cypriots prior to this date. and thus support the notion that the Cypriot issue IS NOT a one-sided issue. Both sides have made their mistakes but by manipulating the events instead of promoting the truth you do nothing to assist the solution.
Anyway, most of his claims have already been addressed since little Rachel used them in her propaganda articles.
Whats 'not normal' is an intern claiming not to be paid yet spends hours learning real history online.
Besides refuting your every single fallacy, I'm also proving that the education system of the US should make major alterations, since as obvious, they let anyone in the Uni's.
Orphic Hymn,
Yes, anyone can go to university in the USA. That's what a free country is all about...
Sorry kiwi, but your definition of a Uni and trying to relate your ill interpretation of one to the notion of freedom is rediculous.
A Uni, is an institution that will provide you with a higher education. BUT in order to be accepted and thus able to receive this 'higher education' you should have 'mastered' the essentials, aka basic knowledge. THAT is what is being critisized here, Unis accepting students who's knowledge is at least inadequate and thus should have not been accepted by the Uni. in the first place.
Orphic Hymn, please realise that you are ignorant and also brainwashed by the Greek propaganda. You are no different from those you constantly criticise.
Please read some of Tony Angastiniotis articles on the website below and you will see how your Greek government also deny and change history in oder to come out as victims which they most certainly are not. You are right when you say there is propaganda, but this applies to both sides, please stop being so ignorant, take your own advice and open your eyes a little.
http://fcms.emu.edu.tr/tony/
anonymous..
It would be nice if some of you actually posted with a screen name so we'd know who's who..
Anyway, I have read several of his articles and I know what has been done on both sides, the issue here is that I've never attempted to conceal anything but instead speak of both sides flaws. That is what I'm against, the one sided presentation of bad Hellenic Cypriots and the good ol' Turkish Cypriots that did nothing.
On a side note, don't know how much you know about Hellenic history, but I can tell you that his latest comment with the pic of Velouchiotis side by side with Che, will bring anything but compliments.
traitors should not be compared to patriots (Che).
For your info Orphic, I am on the Dean's List at the University of Maryland and am very popular amongst my professor. The issue here is not my grade point average and IQ. The issue is that you don't agree with my political views. And only an extremely biased person who is out of touch with the government program at my universiy would understand why I would spend hours working for nothing at the Turkish Cypriot Representative Office. No one can get a government job after graduation without an internship. In many cases, students will intern for nothing just to have the experience. I find myself in this situation.
Also, the purpose of my site is to promote the interests of the Turkish Cypriots. I am not the Cyprus Conflict site. Like many pro-Greek Cypriot sites, the purpose of my site is to promote a certain group of people. Never did I claim to have an un-biased site. I never go around on your pro-Greek Cypriot blogs and complain. So why don't you give us the same curtosy?
BTW, the pro-Greek Cypriot sites are just as one-sided as mine, only in the opposite direction, but never does Orphic complain about these sites being nothing more than propaganda.
Rachel,
It's a good example you've used. The Greek Cypriot sites are very one-sided. If all that was said on those sites were fact, then even Nikos Sampson would have had a halo visible above his head when he was alive, and every single Turkish Cypriot would have been born with a knife in his/her hand. Not exactly credible, is it?
The issue here is that the other sites in question are openly titled propaganda sites while you attempted to denounce this title.
You fail to see that you can not compare two unequal issues, by doing so and comparing your blog to other propaganda sites, you immediately fall in this category, hence why you find me opposing to it.
So in short you're slowly but steadily accepting the original title I gave you, that of a propagandist and by doing so, justifying my every opposition to what has been written here as nothing but a mallicious and bias product of pseudo-state propaganda and of course proving that you intentions are non-related to the population's prosperity..
I again question the capability of those that deem students like you adequate for a Uni.
If you can be considered an example of the future of politics, this world is going straight down the drain.
I am so glad that my professors don't agree with you, Orphic. Unlike you, my professors are open-minded to new ideas and a new way of thinking about the world that does not fall into the propaganda camp. If you will agree that your Macedonia Forum is a propaganda site, I will gladly agree that mine is one as well. But the difference is that you try to present Macedonia Forum as "balanced" when it is not. My site is just as balanced if not more so than Macedonia Forum. At least on my site, I don't label people. I don't reduce my arguements to tabloids, unlike you. I am on Dean's List. I am going to be studying Peace Studies and Regional Security at Ben-Gurion University next year, which is a one-year certificate program. I am a double-major and double-minor at my university. I have an extremely high GPA and am on a prominent task force committee. Already, since I want to go into Middle Eastern studies, I have spoken with the State Department about possible scholarships. I have met many prominent people, such as my congressmen and senators, who like me. Why should I take what some randomn guy from a pro-Greek forum who has not even met me seriously? I leave it to my professors to judge me and thus far, they like me. Sorry, but I think multiple PHD professors know what they are talking about more than you, Orphic. I am so glad that universties don't go by your bigoted bias view on admitance. If that was the case, ONLY Greeks would be educated in US institutions. No Turks and no Jews would be receiving US degrees.
Child I don't care about your insignificant little life, I don't care if you're the teacher's pet, simply because is totally indifferent to the topic and the topic is Cyprus. What I do care about is the objective and historically accurate presentation of the Cyprus issue.
If your self-proclaimed professors support the intentional distortion of history and the attempted rewriting of it, that simply indicates the horrendous quality of education which today's youth are receiving.
As for admitance in Uni. my criterial is not racial,(the little racist celebrates her character once again) but based on an individual's received education and capabilities.
Unfortunately for you, you've proven to belong in the kindergarden category and thus NOT Uni. material.
Excuse me, but my SAT score, college essay, high school and college GPA, contributions to campus life, and respect from my professors MORE THAN demonstrates that I belong on a college campus. And I don't support historical revisionism. I support exposing the truth about Turkish Cypriot suffering. It is YOU who support HISTORICAL REVISIONISM by denying what happened to the Turkish Cypriots between the years 1963-1974.
And I would hardly call people who have PHD's from some of the finest universities in the US and who are on University of Maryland "self-proclaimed professors." The extent that you are willing to go just to prove how wrong that I am just shows YOUR immaturity, NOT MINE. I have yet to know your creditials, Orphic. Who are you to question the opinions of PHD professors?
As I said before, people should not be accepted into university based on whether or not they agree with Orphic Hymn. Since you are willing to deny all of my high credentials to attend university because of my political views, it just goes to show how IMMATURE you are and BIASED. BTW, I have already proven my capabilities at university for the past three years, so I am not even going to respond in the future to your infentile accusations against me. In the future, if you DARE to say that I do not belong in the university because I don't agree with you, I AM JUST GOING TO ERASE THAT COMMENT. As the administrator of this site, it is my right.
BTW, I meant to say on University of Maryland payroll.
You've stated :
>>I am so glad that my professors don't agree with you, Orphic.<<
So in short since they don't agree to my objections towards your intentional manipulation of the island's history, they obviously agree with you and your version of it and thus are not qualified to bear the title of Prof. or at least their opinion on the Cyprus issue shouldn't even be mentioned since they are obviously far more ignorant than you are.
You consider my statements as insulting when all you've been going on about is I'm in Uni. daddy works for the government and grandpa lived in Thessaloniki..
WHO CARES?!?!?!
As I've told you time and time again, neither your nor your families bio and especially the opnion of some prof. is of absolutely no interest to anyone.
What is of interest, is your non-existant responce to WHY you've intentionally distorted quotes, WHY you've intentionally distorted the island's history and to top it all off, after being proven to have manipulated and distorted texts and history, kept totally silent about it, instead of apologizing to the limited if non-existant readers and to the very island's population ???
THAT is what is the issue here.
As for immaturity, as long as you continue to use the "my daddy is stronger than yours", "that site is as propagandistic as mine is"....etc form of kindergarden argumentation, that is the title that will be applied.
Sounds to me like you're on the defensive here, Orphic Hymn. Not getting nervous are we?
Bitch.
Anonymous,
That term you used to describe Rachel can be interpreted by decent people thus: Brave and Indefatigable Turkish Cypriot Heroine.
Since you're obvious not a decent person, Anonymous, then why don't you go home, suck your bottle of Ouzo and copulate with your pet lamb?
I actually take that name as a compliment, for that means that I have dug too close to the truth for anynomous to feel comfortable. And I would like to remind Orphic that I am the administrator of this site and if he continues to disrespect me, his comments WILL BE DELETED. This is my site, not his. So far, I have been tolerant of him. This is all subject to change if he continues to personally insult me. Let me make myself clearer. ORPHIC, IF YOU USE THE WORD KINDERGARDEN ONE MORE TIME, THAT WHOLE COMMENT IS GETTING ERASED. I don't debate people who label me.
BTW, the denial of Orphic Hymn of a genocide committed against Turkish Cypriots still continues to baffle me.
http://www.geocities.com/t_volunteer/cyprus/photo2.htm
And no, Orphic, you have not proved any thing. All you proved is that one of my sources misquoted one or two quotes. But the rest of my quotes remain as valid as ever. You have yet to address the validity of them.
Photos really tell it all, Orphic:
http://www.turkishnews.com/DiscoverTurkey/cyprus/photos.html
http://web.deu.edu.tr/kibris/history/6474.html
http://www.btinternet.com/~cy74/mass.htm
On top of that, ANY comments that talk down to people who have PHD's from a man who has yet to show his credentials will be erased in the future. In fact, any comments that talk down to either me or kiwi will in the future be erased, Orphic. I have been tolerant of your BS for way too long. Oh, and regarding an apology, why don't you say your sorry for all of the personal attacks that you published on Macedonia Forum? Seriously, I have no respect for tabloids and personality attacks. Why don't you also apologize for your denial of a Turkish Cypriot Genocide? Orphic, you are in no position to ask an apology of any one. BTW, if you attack my charactor, don't be surprised if I defend my charactor by mentioning that I made it to the Dean's List and into the Honor's Society at the University of Maryland. This is not immaturity. This is defending ones charactor when one makes personality attacks. If you even bothered to look, I have plenty of stuff that you have failed to deny, like the quote by Makarios where he called upon the Turkish Cypriots to get expelled, to give merely one example. I have presented lots of facts and defended my charactor, just as you attacked a lot of my facts and attacked my charactor. In all honnesty, attacking people's charactor is far more KINDERGARDEN BEHAVIOR than defending one's charactor. But any ways, if you keep up with the KINDGARDEN PERSONALITY ATTACKS ON ME AND KIWI, your comments will be erased in the future, I assure you. Stick to presenting counter arguements. If you don't have them, then leave us alone. It is not like I go over to Macedonia Forum to bother you. If I bother you so much, I can be out of your life really quick-----by you not commenting on this blog in the future. After all, I don't look at Macedonia Forum any more because those insults just upset me. Perhaps it is time that you just did the same. BTW, it is not like I am personally attacking you in the intense manner that you are doing to me, so who are you to talk? You have not really been slandered for what you did. I have.
Rachel,
Those slanders have only proved just what kind of people we are up against. I've had my fair share of it on Wikipedia and Wikimapia, and it hasn't deterred me one bit. That little anonymous 'gift' on my front lawn last year of the stabbed-to-death opossum in a box marked 'oxi' only succeeded in getting my back up.
(2 Timothy 4:7)
Yah, but just because these people are out there does not mean that we have to put up with them. I think I have been way too tolerant of Orphic. If he does not shape up in the future, his comments are going to be erased.
Yeah, that would REALLY break my heart...!
Sorry, Orphic, but I will not tolerate your name calling any more.
Thats it Rachel.. don't give answers, just delete the posts you can't give any responce to and claim that I insulted you..
I clearly warned you, Orphic. No more calling me and Kiwi names such as propagandist. No more denying a Turkish Cypriot genocide or at the very least, Turkish Cypriot suffering. You can tell me about Greek Cypriot suffering all you want, but only if you recognize Turkish Cypriot suffering. I put up with your personal insults for about a month. You can't say that I did not give you plenty of chances and tolerated you demeaning my charactor for an entire MONTH. I might not be able to control the comments you leave on Israel Insider and the articles you write on Macedonia Forum, but I have the right to not put up with personal insults on my site. I will be more than willing to address your arguements that do not include personal insults. If you want to re-write your points minus the name-calling, feel free to and I will address those points. But I gave you plenty of warnings that I was running out of patience because one month is just too long to put up with such name-calling from a person that I have never met in person. You can't say that I did not give you a fair chance. I put up with your name-calling and criticism for an entire month. I allowed you to have the freedom to write whatever crap you wanted for an entire month. I have had enough of it. You have worn out my patience. I am usually a very open-minded and patient person, but I am sorry, you have crossed lines in your criticism of me that you simply should not have crossed. You have crossed lines that make your arguements more into tabloid than legimate criticisms, which have the result of undermining your entire arguements. Until you learn to argue without calling people names, I will simply erase your comments. As I said, I warned you and it is YOUR FAULT that you did not listen to my warnings.
Orphic_Hymn
You posts have bored me enough why don't you do everyone a favour and go crawl under a rock.
You know the truth your just in denial. At the end of the day you have to live with the lies we don't.
So face the facts IT WAS THE TURKISH CYPRIOTS THAT WERE SUBJECTED TO GENOCIDE.
I can believe you compare the TMT to the EKOA. They were where near the same you guys had tanks and all sorts of weapons.
What type of person does it make you that you support the refusal of human rights to an ethinic group just because of who they are.
if you think you know the truth then let history speak for it self.
Signing out
Proud Turkish Cypriot
Orphic, you are free to disagree with me and post those disagreements with me all you want. What you are not free to do is insult my charactor, the charactor of Kiwi, or the charactor of our Turkish Cypriot friend. You are not free to deny the Turkish Cypriot genocide. As I said, any such immature insults will be erased. Any denial of genocides will not be tolerated either, just like they are not tolerated in many European countries. However, mature comments where you make legitimate criticisms will not be erased. I kept your comment above in the other article because you made mature valid points, although I did not agree with them. However, calling people fascists just because they refuse to tolerate immature name-calling and will not accept having their charactor attacked is not only a distortion of the truth-----it is plain old wrong. So I suggest that you either suggest that you either accept the new rules or leave the blog. Any complaining of the new rules will be erased as well. As I said, I put up with your insults for a month, as did kiwi. Our Turkish Cypriot friend has put up with them for the last couple of weeks. We are tired of them. I am not suggesting that you crawl under a rock, like our Turkish Cypriot friend. I am just asking for respect and dignity and recognition of a blatant truth, the Turkish Cypriot Genocide. You tell us all the time that we don't look at the Greek Cypriot side. Well, until you look at Turkish Cypriot suffering, you have really no right to complain about that, for to ignore Turkish Cypriot suffering while getting angry when people ignore Greek Cypriot suffering is hypocritical.
Rachel, your excusses leave me totally indifferent. You've continuously avoided to address direct questions that now have begun to haunt you, so you use the delete function as a solution..
I'm still waiting for answers.. for example, in the conveniently deleted post, which allegedly had insulting comments, I asked for pics PRIOR to the invasion and the events that took place..
As a responce I got total silence..
I've asked for exact sources and numbers of deaths during the decade in question.. and again..
total silence..
You attempt to critisize me for the use of the title fascist which I used to label the Turkish Cypriot puppet leaders (even though you distort my conveniently deleted post by attempting to relate it to you or the Turkish Cypriots) yet you fear to address the simple questions on Talat's actions..
Respect Rachel is something you strive to gain and the very moment you resorted to attacking an entire people because you felt humbled, you lost any right to demand it..
You now must strive to gain it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4313016.stm
In this article, there is a museum mentioned that shows pictures of slaughtered Turkish Cypriots in the TRNC.
http://www.turkses.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=75&Itemid=33
Here are some pictures of slaughtered Turkish Cypriots. I believe that I posted this one before.
http://www.mediaprof.org/tcvoices/63-74pho.html
Here are more pictures. BTW, 30,000 Turkish Cypriots were made into refugees during the 1963-1974 period. Between 1963-1964 alone, 803 Turkish Cypriots went missing. Most of these people are presumed to be dead. 95% of these people are civillians. To the contrary, over 90% of all Greek Cypriot missing are military.
http://www.pubinfo.gov.nc.tr/h130299b.htm
Sorry Rachel but NO pic of attrocities between 64-invasion.
All pics are either of events that took place during the intercommunal violence of 63- mid 64 or after the invasions. Do try to read the source before you use it.
As for the numbers which you got from the propaganda site.. WHY do you intentionally avoid looking into the OFFICIAL REPORTS???
The OFFICIAL REPORTS prove that your source is simply spreading a manipulated version of the true events. As we've already clarified, according to Richard A. Patrick, who was an officer in UNFICYP, the dead and missing according to OFFICIAL REPORTS are:
>>The period from 21 December 1963 to 10 August 1964 was the most violent phase of the Cypriot conflict. Both communities estimate that several hundred of their members were wounded. In addition, several hundred were kidnapped and temporarily held hostage until exchanges were arranged. Official records show that 191 Turk-Cypriots were known to have been killed and 173 are still missing and now presumed dead. On the Greek-Cypriot side, 133 are known to have been killed and 41 are still missing and presumed dead. It is probable, however, that the figures for Turkish-Cypriot deaths include some who were killed accidentally by their own hand or by other Turk-Cypriots. Greek-Cypriot deaths are probably understated. There are indications that some casualties, for propaganda reasons, were never publicly announced. Also, casualties among Greek Army soldiers in Cyprus are not included in the Cyprus Government's figures. It may be more prudent therefore to accept that approximately 350 Turk-Cypriots were killed in this period while about 200 Greek-Cypriots and mainland Greeks were killed.<<
lets hope that you finally read the damn thing and understand the difference between truth and manipulation.
I'm going to ask YOU a direct question, Orphic Hymn: Why does the prospect of an independent Turkish Cypriot state scare you so much? I would have thought that south of the Green Line would be paradise for you given the dearth of Turkish Cypriots there, and with all of that former Turkish Cypriot farmland down south now occupied by Greek Cypriots, it must seem like Eden to you.
Seriously. And I don't trust the UN. A very bias source indeed. I trust the TRNC government before the UN. Yah, true picture given by the UN. *roll eyes*
HAHAHA the UN is bias but the pseudo-state and its so-called supporters aren't..
All one has to do is take a look at the intentional manipulation of events as presented by any of you or the pseudo-state's propaganda sites and they'll see the issue for what it is..
Anyway, Richard A. Patrick's book is NOT considered an UN report but his personal research on the events HE LIVED!!!
So before you even dare attempt to smear the name of this man and his work which is considered the most authoritative account of the period in question, I strongly suggest you gather proof and be able to support this slander, since what you've presented to us 'till now is nothing but fallacies..
It might come in handy for other issues, like, you never know when some law suit may pop up. 'wink'
Orphic Hymn,
You know, some revisionist works that deny the holocaust and other Nazi atrocities are regarded as 'authoritive works' by various sources as well. So I'm not going to take this person's work as gospel just because YOU vouch for it. I'll take a look at it, but I'm going to cross-check with various other on-line and library resources to see just how authoritive it is.
And in regards to the UN? The UN has - when it has suited them - gone against their own charter in their resolutions and all major powers have ignored UN General Assembly resolutions in the past when it has suited them (The U.S. regarding Cuba and Puerto Rico for example), so I don't really regard them as unbiased either.
By the way, the Greek National Anthem really shows the attitude pervading the thinking on that nation. It's a nice tune (though 168 verses is a little lengthy for my taste), but the English translation of the first line: "I shall always recognize you by the dreadful sword you hold" kind of smacks of threatening, doesn't it: 'Agree with us, or it will go hard with you'
Revisionism, providing it is fully backed up by new finds is totally acceptable, BUT as I said it MUST be fully backed up by new finds.. NO manipulation, NO fallacious interpretations and of course NO invented quotes nor events.
As for the book in question, the fact that it is considered by all authorities of the Cyprus issue as the most accurate account on the events is more than enough for it to trash any single claim made by pseudo-state propaganda sites..
Try to understand that you are trying to compare it with sites that attempt to refute written accounts that trash their propaganda by presenting Hillcrest real-estate shareholders as historians/sources of proof..
Finally as for our national anthem, you approach is simply pathetic.. You continue to attack anything and everything related to this country simply because your inferiority complex drives you to do so..
When you finally get out of 'flirtbox' and obtain an education that will allow you to comprehend poetry of its magnitude only then will you understand what a fool your making out of yourself.
As for your pittyfull translation, the "Hymn to Liberty" is a poem and thus should not be attempted to be directly translated since by doing so you miss out on the actual meaning..
Anyway, it makes no reference to 'dreadfull', the verse related to the sword's cut with the use of 'tromeri' is translated as 'great, tremendous" hence why the second verse exalts the countenance/appearence, as it continues to do so with the reference to sacred bones in the next verse and it continues doing so throughout the entire hymn.
Anyway, manipulate and attack what you are simply unable to reach all you like, for it simply indicates the pathetic argumentation you are able of providing.
On a sidenote, at least we don't consider western civilization a "battered, single-fanged monster" like your mentors do.
Orphic Hymn,
The English transliteration in the book I have for the Greek National Anthem goes thus:
I shall always recognize you by the dreadful sword you hold. Of the Earth who's turning wisdom you survey with spirit bold. 'Twas the Greeks of old whose dying gave in birth our spirit free. Now with ancient valor rising let us hail you, Liberty. Now with ancient valor rising let us hail liberty, Now with ancient valor rising let us hail, oh liberty!
Since this translation actually fits with the score, it makes for a pleasent song to sing. In any case, I was pointing out the irony between the first verse and the prevailing attitude towards the Turkish Cypriots (confrontational). Ironic that I enjoy singing that song, even though I don't agree with either Greek or southern Cypriot foreign policy.
In regards to the books on Cyprus, there are works on both sides that illustrate clearly excess from the other. Whitewashing Greek Cypriot excesses while exaggerating those on the Turkish Cypriot side is what I take issue with. And please don't tell me about Turkish excesses against Greeks in general. Turkey has done a lot of things in the past - and today - that I don't agree with, but that is not the issue here. The issue is treating the Turkish Cypriots fairly, and I beleive that formalizing the partition is the best way to do it.
By the way, I do owe you an apology for one item. I mentioned earlier that Greece does not show much appreciation for New Zealand losses in Greece and Crete during World War 2. I recently read in a New Zealand government site that the Greek Government hosts formal commemorations in Crete annually to honor those fallen and that New Zealand government representaives frequently attend to render honors. This is probably a recent thing as I had not heard of it before I emigrated back in 1990, but still, I apologize for assuming such a callous disregard by Greece towards her wartime allies.
Well your translation of the hymn to liberty is wrong, but this is quite common when someone tries to make a translation rhyme. Its seen in several attempted translations of ancient texts also.
But anyway, as I said, the reference to 'dreadfull' is non existant and believe me when I say that I do know the language in question and thus corrections to my translation are not a possibility.
As for your apology, to be honest I don't remember that comment but it just goes to show, that you know very little about the people and country which you, for some weird reason have come to loathe.
Orphic Hymn,
I'm not suprised that you used my apology over the NZ-Greece angle to throw more crap at me. I do know quite a lot about Greece. More than you think I do. You say that I hate everything Greek. That's not true, despite my titling of one of my posts 'hatred, thy name is Greek'. I do however hate the 'Greater Hellas' concept as it applies to Cyprus. Cyprus was supposed to be a partnership state, but it was blown out of the water in late 1963 by those espousing the 'Greater Hellas' concept as outlined in the Akritas Plan. Partnership proved unworkable, Enosis is something intolerable to those who care about the well-being of the Turkish Cypriot people, which leaves partition. QED.
kiwi,
'Greater Hellas' aka "Megali Idea" is a dead concept and it has been dead for several decades. You perception of it actually indicates that your info comes not from true historic analysis but from nationalistic sites that do not understand the science of geopolitics.
The concept wasn't so much of a plan to obtain lands but rather a reaction towards Russian and Austo-Hungarian geopolitical interest in the Balkan region and especially in our port of Thessaloniki.
It was theis Russian interest that lead the members of our Communist party to literally commit high treason, it was this plan that lead us to our civil war in which brainwashed fools faught against their brothers and country in an attempt to implement Russia's plans..
In short by telling the word you had claims, you delayed (hence why our civil war took place in the 40's while Russian plans are well recorded in the late 1800's) the attempts to take an inch of land from you.
It was actually a political maneuvre that did work. Of course in the process of protecting your own some did 'pay' but the fact of the matter is that it did work.
As for Cyprus which actually is our topic while you constantly mention whatever you happen to come accross..
You mention partnership, do tell us about the impact the Turkish Cypriot denial and continuous veto on the tax issue had on this partnership.
Do explain the exact reason for leaving the country without any source of income for three whole years, explain why the 'partner' was against the constitution which you seem to worship and again veto the army issue since they demanded separate armies instead of mixed units which was what they agreed to in the constitution.
You see the partnership didn't work NOT because one side opposed to it, but becasue they BOTH DID.
Orphic Hymn,
'Greater Hellas' is not dead, unfortunately - at least amngst elements of the Greek expatriate community. Seing pictures of nationalist Greek Fans in Melbourne when the Cypriot tennis player (I forget his name)waving Greek Flags emblazoned with provocative phrases and references to 'Kibris' and 'Constantinople' reinforces that. With that kind of mind-set, do you expect Turks to embrace it?
However, I would like to hear your solutions for Cyprus. If you have a constructive suggestion, I'd like to hear it. So would Rachel. Still, given the historic animosities between Greek and Turk, I remain rather skeptical of such ideas...
Even the Greek Cypriot publication Cyprus Mail mentioned the whole Turkish Cypriot flag issue at the soccer game in the UK:
Greek Cypriot fans’ fury at ‘TRNC’ flag at Arsenal games
(archive article - Saturday, December 2, 2006)
GREEK Cypriot supporters of Arsenal football club are planning to take a huge number of Cypriot flags to today’s north London derby against fierce rivals Tottenham Hotspur.
The show of force is in response to a lone ‘Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus’ flag seen at the Emirates stadium this season. Fans have written to the club complaining about it, but Arsenal have ignored the calls to have it removed.
According to reports, Arsenal said they sought advice from the Home Office, who said there was nothing illegal in someone waving the flag. They also claimed that they didn’t want to offend any one party by telling them to remove their flag.
A petition was started to get the flag removed and there have reportedly been some supporters who have returned their season tickets in protest. The petition is being sent by email and people are being instructed to forward the email to as many people as possible. There are currently more than 7,600 signatures.
Copyright © Cyprus Mail 2007
Now lets talk about freedom of speech, Orphic.
Also, I allow freedom of speech. I just don't put up with personal insults. I put up with them for a month, but I won't put up with them any more. Orphic, people can not yell fire in a crowded theater when there is no fire. In Germany, it is illegal to deny the Jewish Holocaust. There should always be some limits on freedom of speech. However, on the whole, I believe people should be able to express whatever they want so long as they don't personally insult people and deny genocides.
Rachel your argumentation is getting worse by the minute..
So what if Hellenic Cypriot supporters of Arsenal called in and complained about some individual that waved a pseudo-state flag.. how on earth are the complaints against waving a flag described as depriving someone of his/her right to freedom of speech ???
Speech by definition is =
"the communication or expression of thoughts in spoken words"
So waving a flag is not related to freedom of speech. Do try to brush up on that english since this is the ...3rd, 4th.. sorry but I lost count, distortion of the language.
So now celebrating a team's or an individual's accomplishment in any athletic event is considered nationalistic by you..
I guess that events like the world cup where thousands upon thousands chant in favor of their national team and by doing so, exhalt their country should be abolished, since according to your twisted logic they are all hard core nationalists..
Finally, you mention provocative comments which conveniently have not been recorded by any news source.. and to think that this was allegedly a discussion based on facts.
You want suggestions.. well while I find your continuous avoidance of responding to simple questions but instead continuously try to move the topic elsewhere, higly annoying, I'll state the two very basic things that should happen..
a) you and all those like you STOP refering to the population as Greeks and Turks and finally try to get it in your heads that they are CYPRIOTS and only for the purpose of this or any similar discussion is their ethnic background added to the one and only title which they should bear and that is CYPRIOT.
It is the continuation of the distinction between communities which interestingly enough, neither of them promote but its always the pseudo-supporters that do.
You and those like you fail to comprehend that the Turkish Cypriots are well aware that they have been exploited for Turkey's geopolitical interests, they are well aware that the root of their problem is the military goon's insistance to refuse to withdraw all illegal occupation forces, they are well aware and actually fear the anihillation and forcive assimilation due to the continuous importation of illegal settlers by the pseudo-state..
The question here is, since the very backbone of democracy is the people's will, WHY don't you pseudo-state supporters actually listen to the people ????
b) of course the immediate withdrawal of the illegal occupation forces which are the root of the problem and the reason for the isolation of the North.
Orphic Hymn,
The problem is that noone on that island thinks of themselves as CYPRIOT first. That's why there are a lot of Greek flags in the south, and Turkish flags in the north, plus the national anthems of both Cyprus' (I have to use this term for convenience) is that of Greece and Turkey.
But you are so right. For Cyprus to suceed as a unitary state, people have to drop the Greek and Turkish Identities and think of themselves solely as Cypriot. however, what are the chances of that happening? I think its impossible so to my mind, partition is the only realistic answer...
I agree that partition is the only realistic answer. BTW, Orphic, you completely distorted what I have to say. I copied an article from Cyprus Mail that proved my point that the Greek Cypriots were trying to prevent Turkish Cypriots from waving THEIR national flag at soccer matches, which is a clear violation of freedom of speech. Where you got all of your accusations is beyond me. BTW, Turkish Cypriot government is listening to their people. That is why they supported the Annan Plan in 2004. Now if they listened to their people now, they are against unification, as a result poll I posted showed. You keep on neglecting to mention, Orphic, that the reasons for all of this to begin with were the Turkish Cypriot genocide, not the policies of Turkey. All Turkey did was intervene on behalf of the Turkish Cypriots and staid there to protect them until a settlement is reached. Once a settlement is reached, Turkey will leave. Turkey is in Cyprus with the consent of the Turkish Cypriot people, who now make up a majority of Northern Cyprus. Thus, TRNC is all about free speech and democracy. They do have their problems, just like every other society. Nevertheless, they are a democracy.
Rachel, just a question and a remark.
The question is:
Partition you say, is propably the best solution. Would EU membership be a more appealing solution?
The remark is: The Turkish policy from the start of the Greek revolution has been somewhat brutal, 350.000 Pontians Greeks massacred, another 1.5 official names have been transported, more than 1 million Armenians killed, The Kurds will soon "celebrate" their 100.000th Dead. The Imperial Syndrome is not just that it is obvious, it is proven beyond any doubt.
On the other hand you have the Greek people, which besides the Great Cultural Achievents, have no real BIG ISSUES, with nobody, besides the Turks on Cyprus and a "cursed" name with a country that actually survives due to Greek Investment. One problem due to Imperialsm the other due to Communism.
Yes, the Greeks certainly commited their own share of atrocities just like the rest,("survival of the fittest....[in times of war]"), in order to reach where they are, but mind you they are no fools, every single policy implemented has been ratified by the International Organizations, just in any case somewhere, sometime, someone just like yourself here and now, feels like playing "Champion of the Internet Heroes".
In this particular issue, the Turks will keep on blaming the Greeks, the Greeks will do the same, this will bring us to stalemates, where the Issue is at the moment. So no real progress. Real progress will be achieved ONLY when these people will learn to live with each other, under a government which will represent the will of the majority. After all this is what the Hellenic Democratic Values and Humanism stands for.
And something else, i highly advise you all to visit Smyrna or Izmir, you will be amazed of the Greek-Jewish-Turkish relations.
Burleigh,
After reading what people on Macedoniaontheweb had to say about Rachel, I already have a good idea what Grek-Jewish relations are all about...
Dean Thomas
(aka Yankee Kiwi)
I do not know, what you might have been reading, or what is your status. I am a Greek/Turkish-Jew, born in Smyrna, currently in the UK and if any place in the world, where the Jews and the Greeks are ONE, is that place. During the Holocaust my family found refuge with a Greek family in Athens. Even during the Nazi Occupation of Greece, which was the only country along with Yugoslavia in the Balkans to fight against the Fascists till the end. Hitler, said that the only worthy opponents were the Greeks for the sake of the historical record. Churchill said that heroes fight like Greeks and not the Greeks like Heroes.
The Greek Patriarchate of Istanbul, the Ecumenical one, middle name is New Zion, their flag is the flag of Israel. The tombs and graves desecrated during the pogrom of '55 in Istanbul erased both cultures of Turkey. Trying to separate the Greeks and the Jews in Turkey, is something that had never crossed my mind.
As about Cyprus, the British created the mess, and the Turks took the bait. Now the Greeks do not back down, because they are not that little village country that they used to be liable to threats, Greece has gone a long way, and Turkey is not enough. Besides, the fact that not even Azerbaijan has recognized the pseudo-state.
Rachel, it is quite courageous what you tried to do, and a huge step regarding your CV, but if a simple internet-individual like Orphic is able to destroy your thesis with such ease, just imagine what a real-scholar could do. It is a pity for the Turkish-Cypriot people, to be country-less, but this was the last blatant Imperialistic policy in the area, and the International Community was not ready for it.
Burleigh, as a fellow Jew, I respect your opinions. However, between the years 1963-1974, the Greek Cypriots committed genocide against Turkish Cypriots. That is what caused the Turkish intervention, not the other way around. Although there are wonderful Greek people out there that are very pro-Israel, such as my friend Deanna, there are also very anti-Semitic Greek people such as the ones that Kiwi mentions on Macedonia Forum and that were mentioned in a report in the Jerusalem Center for Strategic Studies. I still don't think that Orphic tore my arguement apart, for denying the suffering of the Turkish Cypriots while only mentioning Greek Cypriot suffering and making anti-Semetic statements and personal insults, is not enough to discredit my arguement. I could rebuff every thing that he said on Macedonia Forum, but it would be a waste of my time, for I am a full-time student and have much better things to do. I already did it once and wrote a couple of other articles. But frankly, I barely have time to respond to this blog, let alone write new stuff. However, I can asure you that although he might have torn apart a couple of my sources, he has failed to tear apart the core of my arguement. Keep in mind that the Turkish Cypriot side is extremely under-studied and the Greek Cypriot side has many more resources at their disposal than does the Turkish Cypriot side. Nevertheless, just because there is more junk out there for Orphic to throw at me than there is for me to throw back does not mean that what I said is not true.
Rachel, when you go deeper into this subject, a visit in Cyprus would also help, you will realize that as soon as the army deserts the Island, the whole situation will start gaining ground in favor of the whole Island.
Personally, i saw some attempts of Orphic to dispute the ethnic-cleansing attempts conducted by the Greeks, but these particular argu, i also saw that these argumets were responsive to a much harder line, of that the Greeks are solely to blame. I am pretty sure, that if this discussion had taken place in private it would have been somewhat more apt, and with a much softer-line. However your introduction, the "Greeks never ruled the Island" "Bayezid was the only one who took the Jews in" and the various other comments are not only disrespectful and diminishing to the Greeks as a whole, but they are diminishing to your own Status as a trainee scholar. Hence the attempt to completely discredit every single thing by your opponent. If your thesis is that the Greeks had their own share of atrocities, ofc it still stands, everybody understands that it takes more than one to tango.
However, that does not justify a 30 year old military occupation and the denial of the most basic human rights in the Northern Part of the Island. Something that the Turkish Cypriot people themselves are able to testify. It doesnt justify importation of settlers, and it doesnt justify the Status of the Island in the 21st Century Europe.
The Northern Part mess, is not something that the Greeks can be held responsible for, despite their brief militaristic action. It is undoubtable that the main perpatators were the British. Both Greeks and Turks fell victims to British Imperialism, whoever shot the first bullet is something that cannot be identified, and since it cannot be identified the blame falls as always in the usual suspect, "Europe's sick man". Life is a bitch, there is nothing we can do about it. Nevertheless, we can only imitate the Greeks for standing up and creating a country for themselves, a country which shares the living standards of the most advanced nations in the world within a few years of democracy, and with almost half of it population driven out, and half of its property confiscated.
Only the fact that the Turkish Cypriot people had voted for re-unification under a joint government, with minority status says a lot as about the issue in question.
Can you please tell me exactly what is your thesis on the subject in brief points?
If it is a) Independence to the Turkish Cypriot people. It is imposssible, politically the Greeks will not allow it, and the tide will not change in the near future. Maybe in 20 something years, maybe.
If, b) Reunification with the GC's and a joint governemnt according to population, again the GC's will barely accept it now that they are in the EU, and none can blame them really. They got the upper-hand, after all its politics we are talking about. It would be a breakthough for Turkish politics, though. And a heavy argument for EU ascension.
If, c) a simple ackwnoledgement of some atrocities commited, i think that this has already been taken care for. I am not sure though, but i am pretty positive that responisibilities for EOKA-B atrocities have been taken, officially.
If, d) Providing a simple counter argument in favor of the Turkish-Cypriot people and your own hysteropheme, i truly suggest the polemic remarks to be removed for your own sake, as they are highly provocative and completely invalid. Their only purpose argumentatively is to touch the hearts of the utterly ignorant public, create tension between the communities, anger the Greeks, provoke nationalism, and damage your image.
And a final remark, from all of the Western World there is absolutely no people that will have to say anything good about the Jews in their majority. Borat took many skeletons out of the closet for Israel's number one ally. The key here is that while you see some intellectuals in various advanced and supposedly friendly countries expressing higly anti-Semitic views, in Greece, there is a chance that you will hear pro-Semitic views by non-intellectuals as well, as the intellectuals are already Pro-Israel, at least the serious ones. Making a comparative analysis of the Greek and Turkish public as about Anti-Semitism, it would just make you change the blog, to gc-supporters.com, if that is your reason.
Regards.
Burleıgh, I see what you are getting at. I used to favor unification under the Annan Plan. Now, I favor partition, since the Greek Cypriots rejected the Annan Peace Plan. Even if it takes 20 years, I think partition is the best solution at this point. However, my mind could be changed if the Greek Cypriot side makes some solid steps towards reconciliation and recognition of the Turkish Cypriot genocide and Turkish Cypriot rights to have equality in government. Although I admit that I might have come off a bit strong in the beginning, I want to inform you that it was mostly in response to heavilly biased Greek articles that I have been reading. Comments by Orphic denying Turkish Cypriot genocide pushed my buttons even further. Out of all of the pro-Greek articles that I have read, his articles bother me the most. BTW, even if I had not written this stuff, someone like Orphic would still be denying the Turkish Cypriot genocide and any Turkish Cypriot suffering whatsoever. Orphic is just as biased as I am, only in the opposite direction. Hence why I just erased his recent comment. Orphic, as I said before, if you want to deny the Turkish Cypriot genocide and call people names, do it in the Macedonia Forum website, which by now I avoid at all costs because it just raises my blood sugar level. I leave that battle to kiwi.
Rachel STOP THE LIES!!!!
There was absolutely NO FORM OF INSULT WHAT SO EVER IN MY LAST POST.
You simply erased the post because you like kiwi can NOT provide a single objective account, a single international organization that will support your thesis of genocide.
True I do regect its existance but I regect it based on FACTS, with the best one being that the entire world recognizes the events as INTERCOMMUNAL VIOLENCE!!!
Let me note that I am still waiting for an accurate account of the Turkish Cypriot death toll PRIOR TO THE INVASION..
As for the MOTW site, your visits mean absolutely nothing to me, if anything you may finally learn what you ignore about the island's history.. but believing that kiwi who's still expecting reinforcements from ACTA is laughable.
Finally my note on your perception of the Turkish Cypriots still stands. Your description of the accurate historic accounts as JUNK indicates that you have absolutely NO interest NOR respect towards the people which you allegedly support.. You're doing it all for your own vanity!!!
Orphic Hymn,
I make no apologies and have no regrets as to the stance that I have taken on this issue. I also have no regrets as to speaking my mind on the Macedonia web, particularly in regards to the smears leveled against Rachel by the likes of 'Pankration'.
The issue that I make is that the Turkish Cypriots are recognized as a distinct ethnic community, yet their ligitimate right of self-determination has been denied by a people with historical emnities. And no matter what extremists on either side have done, or what justifications can be made, the simple fact is that the Turkish Cypriots deserve to live in peace and security. The events of the 1960's proved that this could not be acheived under the rule of the Greek Cypriots, so partition under those circumstances makes sense. And since either federation or confederation was refused by the Greek Cypriots, that only left the unilateral declaration of independence.
Incidently, I don't approve of Anatolian Turkish migration to Northern Cyprus as the ethnic identity of the Turkish Cypriot populace has been compromised as a result, but with the embargoes in place forcing the majority of the Turkish Cypriots into the disapora, who is more to blame for that?
Rachel, i can see that Orphic, is not the most apt person on this planet.
Your continuing repetition of the term "genocide" ignites such behaviors.
There has been absolutely no person in the Planet besides, you and Harry Scott Gibbons, that has ever used this term to describe the Cypriot conflict.
I am pretty sure you realize,that when i said, certain comments igniting nationalism, i did refer to those ones.
"Genocide" is a pretty heavy term, which means literally the annihilation of a whole race.
As far as statistics are concerned, the Turkish people are still alive and flourishing, and even if the Greeks drove the whole population out of the island, it would still not be "genocide".
Inter communal violence/atrocities is by far the most appropriate and the most realistic term available in the English Dictionary. As all independent sources provide more or less the same numbers from both communities as dead and injured.
"Genocide" is laughable to say the least.
As about the Status of Cyprus, Democratic and fair rules are the optimum solution, not satisfying Turkish Ego. In other words, unification, yes, with Democratic values, not 50/50, but the exact percentage of population, property, and other resources. I am pretty sure that a Brusselian bureaucrat can certainly figure out the exact percentages of participation.
And if Partition would be the case, then what should happen with the properties? One suggestion would be properties of TC in the south to go back to their owners or descendants, and properties of GC' in the North to go back to the GC's or their descendants.
That is fair in all fairness, and something that the TC side would never accept since they would have to give up more than half of their part to get back in return a 1% of what they would give up, another factor that makes one wonder.
As i have been to Cyprus several times, the situation is quite simple, the South has everything the North hasn't, the society in the South is far more advanced economically and politically, and no sane person would give that up just to satisfy the Turkish public, by unifying and giving a 50/50 control as it is would be a travesty. Anyway,not to be long, things are quite simple, the GC's have absolutely no reason to offer something as a goodwill token for they are where they want to be. On the other hand the Turkish Cypriot/Turkish side has all the reasons, to remove the troops, reopen the ports, and join the GC haven.
Following the line, they(GC's) committed "genocide", we always ruled the Island, we still need the army for protection and such, serve one purpose only, to damage their own situation, to put the issue into a stalemate, and to distance their relations with the GC's, and continue advocating separatism among the communities.
Ideal? I wouldn't say so.
I do not know what the person that supplied you with these kind of arguments, given that he/she is a TRNC official/scholar, had in mind. But if their government continues to advocate such stances in a time period when Turkey and Greece are buying each others banks, are airing common educational programs in TV and Radio, and have already signed a moderation program for School Textbooks, by minimizing primarily hostilities towards Greek and Christian Populations in the Ottoman Empire, then the person in question is acting in a suicidal manner for a)his career, as a Turkish official/scholar, his country(TC) as illustrated above and you Rachel as a potential high-profile scholar in the future.
Regards.
Kiwi, the 60's federation, was more than a utopia for Turkish Cypriots as a mere 20% enjoyed equal de jure control as the rest 80%. Something completely illogical, and we saw where that led the communities. Injustice must not be advocated.
Also, the fact that the Annan Plan was rejected by the Greek Cypriots, for being equally similar to the 60's federation was only logical given the political favor they enjoyed with their soon-to-become EU members.
As illustrated already politics is a game that is played hard. And the GC government has absolutely no reason to back down from its thesis. On the contrary, the TC and Turkish government have all the reasons to do so.
Politics some times require backing not forwarding, and the current situation can be described as more than a vision to the Turkish government to provide some "good-will" tokens.
Burleigh,
Before the intercommunal violence started, the Turkish Cypriots (18% of the population) owned 31% of the land on Cyprus. As the Turkish Cypriot people are primarilly agriculturalist, that percentage is not surprising. The violence of the '60's resulted in that land being abandoned and T/C enclaves amounting to only 4% of the land resulting. Now, the Turkish Cypriots - with the help of the Turkish Military - have control of 37% of the land. So, if there is to be any redress, all that the Turkish Cypriots really need to cede is 6%.
You said 'fair' I believe. Then 31% of Cyprus under these conditions would qualify. The Annan plan would have left the north with that percentage. The Greek Cypriots said 'no', so guess what: you let 'em keep the 37%.
I agree with kiwi. If the Greek Cypriots don't want to back down from their position, I guess Turkish Cypriots will get to keep 37% of the island. BTW, Burleigh, every single article that I wrote up here was approved by officials working for the Turkish Cypriot Ministry of Foreign Affairs. They confirmed that EVERY THING that I have written is fact. All of my facts came either off pro-Turkish websites or from their embassy archives. I am doing nothing more than advocating the official Turkish Cypriot position. And yes, Orphic, I do care about Cyprus. Just because my main concern is Turkish Cyprus, not Greek Cyprus, does not mean that I don't care about the island.
So Orphic, given that my mentors are the ones who guided me and clarified that every thing I wrote was indeed true, you can't single me out as an individual for distorting facts. If it is a distortion, you would have to criticize EVERY ONE who works in the TRNC Representative Office in Washington, DC. In addition to their archives and pro-Turkish sites, I also got information from professional Turkish Cypriot diplomats. They approved every thing that I have written in my articles.
Although I have noticed that there are a few distortions, the overall picture is quite accurate. To your credit, Rachel, Orphic Hymn's has outdone you regarding distortion of sources by far. I say this as a university professor who studies this region of the world. And I definitely think that EOKA B had genocidal ambitions. This is a known fact. However, they did not succeed in their genocidal ambitions due to the Turkish intervention.
Rachel, it is very strange that the official Turkish Cypriot Diplomats have offered you such blatant distortions, it makes one wonder, on their agenda.
Anonymous, committed genocide, and having ethnic cleansing intentions are not one and the same thing.
Also, EOKA B tried to assassinate Makarios and overthrow his government with the help of the Greek dictatorship, when the enosis program had started fading away and losing international support, hence urging the Greek-Cypriot government to re-think its stance toward the status of the Island and making them adopt a much softer line, which was destroyed when the Turkish militants invaded the Island.
The fact that EOKA B acted independently, and not governmentally controlled is a fact. Therefore Greek-Cypriot administration are not responsible for terrorist activities, neither is the the Greek Cypriot Public.
When it is historically clear that the Greek Cypriot Government, the Makrios administration fought the EOKA B paramilitants. EOKA B was coordinated by the Greek Junta, which in turn was coordinated by the CIA, another historically clear fact. hence EOKA B activities do not justify Turkish intervention, and thus the numerous UN reports that call for withdrawal ever since.The Turkish Military intervention was planned and coordinated, a drilling exercise which became a full-scale military assault, and besides EOKA B is fully disarmed from the 80's completely and the Turkish Army is still in the Island. Another fact that makes one wonder.
Rachel, it is very strange that the official Turkish Cypriot Diplomats have offered you such blatant distortions, it makes one wonder, on their agenda.
Anonymous, "committed genocide", and having "ethnic cleansing intentions" are not one and the same thing. Let's use some appropriate terms here, we are not kids, neither illiterate.
Also, EOKA B tried to assassinate Makarios and overthrow his government with the help of the Greek dictatorship, when the enosis program had started fading away and losing international support, hence urging the Greek-Cypriot government to re-think its stance towards the status of the Island and making them adopt a much softer line, which was made ineffective when the Turkish militants invaded the Island on the pretext of an military exercise primarily, and then throwing the EOKA B activities on the table as pretext.
The fact that EOKA B acted independently, and not GC governmentally controlled is a fact. Therefore Greek-Cypriot administration are not responsible for terrorist activities, neither is the the Greek Cypriot Public, for such grave generalization to occur under the umbrella of the current TRNC office, which supposedly aims to implement and promote Democratic values.
When it is historically clear that the Greek Cypriot Government, the Makarios administration fought against the EOKA B paramilitants. EOKA B was coordinated by the Greek Junta, which in turn was coordinated by the CIA, another historically clear fact.Therefore, EOKA B activities do not justify Turkish intervention, and thus the numerous UN reports that call for withdrawal ever since.
Besides, if Turkish Intervention was and is for EOKA B, why is it still there?
So, as you can understand, Turkish Military Intervention is not justified, by none of the angles one would try to look at it.
Justifying it, in the current political and social environment, does no good than further promoting nationalism and nihilism.
And Kiwi, only the fact that the Greek Cypriots denied this 7% of property for not jeopardizing their political and social integrity, answers plenty of questions, if you think about it more carefully.
Oops, my apologies i must have accidentally pressed the button before i was ready to publish my article, you might as well delete the one before the last one.
Also, anonymous i just took a look at your comment more carefully.
First of all a university professor, offers a name and a contact, if what he says is what he actually believes.
Secondly, a university professor, does not say " I think" and then " It is a know fact" It is an argumentative fallacy.
So Burleigh,
What is the solution then - one that does not involve one side wiping out the other's presence on the island, that is. A unitary state is out, so that leaves three choices: federation, confederation, or recognition of two seperate countries on the island. Are there other choices that I've missed?
I would personally vote for a a completely unified State, with absolute control to the people according to major 3 variables, population,property and every single other resource, So that there is absolutely no argument from neither side for break up. As i already Stated a Brusselian bureacrat, can certainly figure out the ultimate fair plan.
One thing that must be taken care of, before any talks begin, is moderation and mutual respect by both offices. And articles as such coming out by official Turkish-Cypriot offices certainly do not help the situation.
After all we can not blame the Greek office for rejecting independence of the Turkish Cypriots when their office, is publishing such one-sided arguments and mentoring neutral scholars to do the job for them. Not only due to the truthfulness, but also because in Politics such moves backfire.
And this is what makes me wonder the most, because in reality, this article helps the Greek-Cypriot hard-liners to keep their hard-line by continuing to blame that the TC's are separatists in an island.
In other words, such articles provide GCypriot nationalists and extremists with material to throw back at them. After destroying the sources quite simply just as OH did, it becomes a toy for further separatism.
Politics, it acts as an agent in favor of the GC thesis, and not the other way around. ANd thats why it makes one wonder of the TC officials in DC which btw the governor is Greek.
Ok, Burleigh, so you admit that Makarios had the intention to ethnically cleanse Turkish Cypriots from the island while EOKA B and the coup had genocidal ambitions that were thwarted by the Turkish intervention. After going through all of that, can you understand why Turkish Cypriots would want a state of their own? Can you understand why they feel that they need the Turkish military there to protect them? Can you understand why it is a comfort to them?
I would personally vote for a a completely unified State
And I would like the Turkish Cypriots to be granted the same rights that everyone else has. Funnily enough, our wants are at conflict.
, with absolute control to the people according to major 3 variables, population,property and every single other resource, So that there is absolutely no argument from neither side for break up.
By that logic, let's reunify USSR. What's that you say? Different ethnicities, different cultures, abuse by some parts over the others? Oh, wait a second, I recall something like that. Starts with a 1, ends with 964.
As i already Stated a Brusselian bureacrat, can certainly figure out the ultimate fair plan.
Right, that's why the issue hasn't been resolved in over 40 years. There hasn't been a Brusselian bureaucrat to solve the bloody thing! Yes, that must be it.
One thing that must be taken care of, before any talks begin, is moderation and mutual respect by both offices.
Like those lovely banners at Emirates Stadium? I would say the point of "mutual respect" is far too trespassed by the time you're calling for the "barbarian Turk's" head simply because he waved a flag, but perhaps you disagree, and claim it can be arranged.
.. so why does Germany still have to take measures against Nazis again? Surely they'd have that bloody Brusselian bureaucrat to sort things out with mutual respect!
And articles as such coming out by official Turkish-Cypriot offices certainly do not help the situation.
Wait.. you just called the Turkish-Cypriot side "official."
You realize that the issue would've been resolved decades ago if the rest of Greek Cyprus would follow that logic, right? But what fun is that when there are Turkish Cypriots to be oppressed. Delicious!
After all we can not blame the Greek office for rejecting independence of the Turkish Cypriots when their office, is publishing such one-sided arguments and mentoring neutral scholars to do the job for them.
However, we can blame them for the ethnic cleansing and decades of oppression. Don't you realize the entire point here? "Greek office rejecting independence"? I don't recall Russia having a say in it when USSR split! If only Greek Cypriots were commies, then Reagan could've had Makarios "tear down that wall!"
Not only due to the truthfulness, but also because in Politics such moves backfire.
Are you seriously arguing that the entire reason for the complete and utter isolation of Turkish Cypriot people (meanwhile we have lovely states like North Korea and Saudi Arabia) is Greek Cypriots holding a grudge against Turkish Cypriot print?
And this is what makes me wonder the most, because in reality, this article helps the Greek-Cypriot hard-liners to keep their hard-line by continuing to blame that the TC's are separatists in an island.
Um.. you realize that the TC's pretty much made it clear that they want separation around 4 decades ago, when they were saved from completely being demolished by EOKA? Look at any polls?
Why yes, that would be Turkish Cypriot print you'd have to look at. I'm sorry, I forgot that it offends you.
Turkish Cypriots would rather not live with Greek Cypriots. It'd be a good idea to stop being that psycho boyfriend that threatens to kill his girlfriend when she wants to leave because he's abusing and isolating her. Lovely analogy, didn't even have to change any verbs around as it's the exact same situation!
In other words, such articles provide GCypriot nationalists and extremists with material to throw back at them.
As opposed to throwing complete isolation and ensuring that the rest of the world knows that Cyprus is Hellenic Empire expansion pack.
.. is there any chance to exchange the two? Seriously, throw back all the Hellenic nationalists you want if you would, y'know, stop oppressing us.
After destroying the sources quite simply just as OH did, it becomes a toy for further separatism.
Politics, it acts as an agent in favor of the GC thesis, and not the other way around. ANd thats why it makes one wonder of the TC officials in DC which btw the governor is Greek.
Er.. are you talking about Adrian Fenty? He's African American, not Greek.
So essentially, your argument boils down to Turkish Cypriots being too harsh when they talk about Greek Cypriots, and any steps they take toward their freedom to end their 4 decade oppression makes Greek Cypriots sad; and they would do well to go under Greek Cypriot control again? Going against the express wishes of the TCs to have their own sovereign state, and the hostility of the GCs?
It simply boggles the mind.
1) Greek Cypriots oppressed Turkish Cypriots, abusing their majority
2) Turkish Cypriots express desire to break off, citing evidence that Greek Cypriots did their best to kill every single one of them
3) Greek Cypriots are offended by TC sentiments, and want TCs to come back to live under their hostility again and to grant them all their land
Here's my idea:
1) Cut the losses, negotiate partition, end the "Cyprus dispute."
You're talking about fairness, and how a unified Cyprus (*barf*) would be governed according to population and not divisions. Complete fairness right there, have 2 different countries that can govern however they want, without the fear of either being oppressed. No need for that Holy Grail of a Brusselian Bureaucrat to come up with a solution!
e,
I couldn't have put it any better myself.
Dean.
e....
As it seems to me, you have absolutely no clue about the relationship about the 2 people.
Greeks and Turks are currently living together peacefully in Greece and Turkey, but they aren't in Cyprus.
Greek Imperialism you say, and last time i checked it was the British that hold the largest military base in the Mediterranean in Cyprus, and the Turkish that still have 40.000 armed troops to watch over an EU country.
You are calling for Turkish Cypriot referendums, when a rational individual, understands that most of these votes have been boycotted by the occupational army.
As illustrated already, and as proven if you visit certain key point areas, Greeks and Turks know hot to live together in peace, except Cyprus? Why? Because of the 60's, sure sure, we can repeat that until it echoes in eternity, and convince our brain signals to believe it. Turkish terror never stopped the Greeks from fleeing.
Fact is "e", politics are not that simple, ey you took my toys away, ill make my own government. Especially in the European world.
Attacking, the Greek public with such a manner, backfires, and that is the reality. Providing such controversial sources, which are easy to dispute, only makes one wonder even more for the intentions.
And blaming the GC's for paying with the same price, while there have been million , not hundrends as in Cyprus, million deaths in Turkeys hands will not make anyone wiser.
As about the DC governor, i was propably mistaken, i had heard it on the news a couple of years ago, if i remember well, and still had that idea.
In any case, if you parallelize this policy, with other more blatant policies, e.g. Americas War on terror, one can clearly understand how certain things function in the backstage. And what kind of arguments are being used.
Fact is that in the "new protectionist" policy domain, this article is the a and the b on how the TC's will continue their isolation. While a few miles away, Turks and Greeks are living in harmony.
And before i go to work, i would like you to search for the History of Imvros and Tenedos, 2 islets of minimal importance, and how Turkey destroyed their population, with open Prisons, and whatever else floated the boat of the criminals. And the Greeks, still didn't move to the corner and declare independence, for the simple reason, that they wouldn't violate the Treaties made in order to keep control of the political upper hand. And guess what, Greeks now are back after so many years of persecution, they fought and fough in the Courts, and they managed to earn their right to go back to their homelands, despite the continuing terror imposed upon them. A great example as to how, if someone really cares about his homeland, can live together and put everything behind. And make efforts to live in peace.
Also,lets be realistic here, we aren't talking about marriage psychology, but about a highly strategic Mediterranean area.
kiwi
Firstly your presence in MOTW was literally insignificant, you resorted to pathetic provocations although you originally complained about not being able to register in order to state your opinion, implying thus that a mature discussion would take place.
Unfortunately you never did try to contest anything stated, you never did get around to refuting my fallacies..
Anyway, the percentage you present is yet another manipulaton of facts. According to the 1960's census the land was distributed as follows, Hellenic Cypriots 79.4%, Turkish Cypriots 20.4%.
Actually the very Turkish Cypriot funded real-estate sites like that of "The Villa Shop" clearly warn potential buyers that approx 85% of the lands in the North ARE HELLENIC CYPRIOT..
Anyway, I honestly wonder if you've ever read the plan to begin with..but thats a different topic.
Sorry to break it to you and your 'mentors' Rachel, but as I have proven you have posted a totally distorted version of the island's history.
You manipulated it to present the Turkish Cypriots as the totally innocent side while did anything in your power to present the Hellenic Cypriots as the 'evil' ones.
Hell its simple logic that your mentors would support this version. The question here is WHY did they NEVER give you any proper info, info that could counter what I have written. WHY do they dread to admit that they too, have to take part of the blame and that they are NOT totally innocent as you dare to present???
The answer is quite clear, by doing so, by accepting their implication in the conflict, by accepting that they were driven by Turkish interest which had NOTHING to do with the Turkish Cypriot population's prosperity.. THEY LOST THE WHOLE ARGUMENT.
ANONYMOUS..
Oh.. so now I have the honor of being critisized by some alleged Uni. prof.
By all means please do get involved in the discussion, do present the manipulation I've done..
You see, kiwi, his assistants from ACTA and Rachel were totally unable of doing so, so your knowledge on the issue, (being a Uni. prof. that specializes in the region) would obviously clarify a whole lot.
Orphic Hymn,
As strange as it may seem to you, I do honor the Greek Flag. On my front lawn flagpole, I fly it every March 25. And in case you're wondering, I do fly the RoCyp flag, but it is half-staffed on the day I do fly it (21 December) to symbolize the death of the partnership republic. The TRNC flag is flown every November 15 and the Turkish Flag is flown on 29 October. However, your antics have made me wary of honoring the Greek flag in future, even though your National Anthem is one of the better sounding ones in the world.
My beef with the Macedonia web centers around the smears and name-calling that you and your friends throw against Rachel. But don't worry: I won't be participating on that forum any more. Just thinking about what you and your friends called her turns my stomach.
Those land percentages were gleaned off several websites, so the 31% figure, I have no cause to dispute. And if 85% of land in the north was formerly Greek, then that means only 15% of total land in the north was Turkish Cypriot, putting the majority of former Turkish Cypriot owned land in the South (probably being plowed and tended to by Greek settlers as we sepak). And please don't tell me about Turkish Cypriot properties being held in trust. That only applies for properties lost after 1974, not 1963. So sayest my sources...
"Ok, Burleigh, so you admit that Makarios had the intention to ethnically cleanse Turkish Cypriots from the island while EOKA B and the coup had genocidal ambitions that were thwarted by the Turkish intervention. After going through all of that, can you understand why Turkish Cypriots would want a state of their own? Can you understand why they feel that they need the Turkish military there to protect them? Can you understand why it is a comfort to them?"
Rachel, i am not of the kind that if i admit something it will become true.
If Makarios during the Enosis plan had ethnic-cleansing ambitions? Sure he did. If EOKA helped the situation? Sure it did.
Now, logically the TC's, wouldn't want to live with people that tried to ethnic cleanse them, in a perfect world, but certainly what EOKA did, it didn't do by itself, there was a TMT there as well. So as much as the TC's do not want to live with GC's so much the others for the same reasons do not want to live with them.
But, is that what is best overall? Separatism and division? We should learn from our mistakes not repeat them, through hate-producing thesis's.
The Turkish administration throughout the centuries have committed so much ethnic cleansing against the Greeks and the rest non-Muslims, that even inspired Hitler to th Holocaust. Let's not even go there. That hasn't stopped the Greeks from living or pursuing to live where they used to live before the atrocities because ones home is ones home, despite the administration or the police.
Furthermore, in this case, the Turkish Cypriots are not Cypriots, they are Turkish imports(at least in their majority) who have taken free land, through an occupation illegal army according to the UN. So the owners want it back, its as simple as that. If the TRNC, becomes legally independent, they will never get it back. So, why make them legal? For the love of God?
As for who shot the first bullet and started the equal mess can be identified with 2 simple steps:
One is, who was the one that allied with the British Imperialists?
Second, who has pursued similar policies...who bares the title "deep state", and who has committed various genocides?
But, for the benefit of the doubt, we can always call it "inter-communal violence...."
Also how come nobody is listening for the past 30 years the poor Turkish-Cypriots? How none is listening? Because the Greek lobby is the strongest in world?
The same Greek lobby that lost one of its most important cultural names?
Because....Greek Politicians have managed to keep every single country of the planet from conducting trade with a Turkish protectorate? How is a Greece that is on democracy ever since '74, struggling to gather its pieces, managed to pull something like that off against a 70 million market; Turkey? Are the Greeks that strong? Are the Turkish that weak?...?
What i would assume, and one is easily able to comprehend is that the Turkish policy was so blatant and egoistic, everybody saw it, everybody realized, and it was too late then, without the Greeks lifting a finger, the world whether we like it or not, has become critical. The public opinion, if the images reach them can become quite strong. The UN is around to guarantee that, to moderate and punish the offenders. Quoting UN resolutions would be tiring, after all there must be somewhere around.
"You're talking about fairness, and how a unified Cyprus (*barf*) would be governed according to population and not divisions. Complete fairness right there, have 2 different countries that can govern however they want, without the fear of either being oppressed. No need for that Holy Grail of a Brusselian Bureaucrat to come up with a solution!"
That would be fair "e", if they exchanged properties as the registry was prior to '74.
At the moment, with 85% property as OH provides being occupied, and securing it with partition, it doesn't sound fair at all. Besides, i would trust a Brusselian bureaucrat more than a Turkish Imperialistic left-over.
"And I would like the Turkish Cypriots to be granted the same rights that everyone else has. Funnily enough, our wants are at conflict."
Have you ever seen a unified State discriminating constitutionally among its citizens in the EU in our time? It must be somewhere behind the map, silly me, i must get a new pair of glasses.
"Um.. you realize that the TC's pretty much made it clear that they want separation around 4 decades ago, when they were saved from completely being demolished by EOKA? Look at any polls?"
Yes certainly, polls... how could i miss that? Polls in occupied area? Come on, "e" would you like to meet my 10 year old niece?
"Like those lovely banners at Emirates Stadium? I would say the point of "mutual respect" is far too trespassed by the time you're calling for the "barbarian Turk's" head simply because he waved a flag, but perhaps you disagree, and claim it can be arranged.
.. so why does Germany still have to take measures against Nazis again? Surely they'd have that bloody Brusselian bureaucrat to sort things out with mutual respect!"
The only nationalism i see, coming from official diplomatic offices, is Rachel's article. Neither the Turkish foreign ministry nor the Greek one, call for anything remotely similar to "genocide", and even when it is a fact that 350.000 Pontian Greeks died in the hands of Turkish nationalism.
Comparing Greeks with the Nazis, when Hitler declared that he was inspired by the Turks, is more than amusing.
Also, next time i ll go to Lazio's football match in Italy, i'll remember to call every single Italian a Nazi...oh wait a second...i remember...i used to be in elementary school when i did that last time, afterwards my papa taught me, that good and bad people exist in every single corner of the planet.
Ever since then, and after cross-checking my papas philosophy i blame myself for realizing the obvious at such late stage of my life, i was 8.
What about you?
"However, we can blame them for the ethnic cleansing and decades of oppression. Don't you realize the entire point here? "Greek office rejecting independence"? I don't recall Russia having a say in it when USSR split! If only Greek Cypriots were commies, then Reagan could've had Makarios "tear down that wall!""
Are you joking mate? Do you realize that the TRNC in every single map is referred to as occupied?
Is it occupied by the Greeks maybe?
What are you on about? Now, comparing USSR with the Greeks, first Hitler, then Stalin, productivity in its peak.
Do you seriously believe that blaming the Greeks, and proving the attitude that they accuse you to be(separatists) is helpful to your cause? Especially at this particular point of time?
With so many variables to be considered?
EU-INTEGRATION? Greek-Turkish friendly relations? Historical moderation in regards of hate-producing terms?
Economic integration between the 2 parties?
Drin Drin, reality on the phone...
"So essentially, your argument boils down to Turkish Cypriots being too harsh when they talk about Greek Cypriots, and any steps they take toward their freedom to end their 4 decade oppression makes Greek Cypriots sad; and they would do well to go under Greek Cypriot control again? Going against the express wishes of the TCs to have their own sovereign state, and the hostility of the GCs?"
My whole argument boils down to this, since you believe that you are discussing with High-schoolmates.
Blaming the one side, for events perpetuated by a third party...leads to separatism. 1+1=2. No rocket science.
Blaming one party by using useless sources and controversial authors, leads to ridiculation a priory. So here you got 2 evils, one is unwanted separatism. The other, is offering to your opponent a chance to call you lier, and further diminish your status in a world where marketing and image is top-priority.
Both of them make up a third evil as 1+2=3, which is further isolation both argumentatively as illustrated and politically as a precedent.
In other words, Greek separatists, are "opening up champagnes at the moment and drink to their victory" for establishing one more argument favoring their case. The question here is, did Greek separatists orchestrate this whole thing? Considering of what great job you consider them to have done in conspiracy theory, in order to keep the Turkish-Cypriots isolated for more than 30 years, it only seems logical that you are able to believe such a thing as well.
And if it wasn't them? Are the Turkish Cypriot diplomats such brilliant policy-makers?
If, yes well done then, we can always send them to Gaza, to join the Hamas.
Regards,
what i had to say, i did, i truly wish you all the best Rachel, i hope that you shall realize all these "tricky" tricks, sooner or later in your career in politics, and sincerely wish you that you will not become such a victim twice ("once can always be forgiven. Twice it becomes a sin").
The fact that we are Masters in Political Strategy, and considering the current Anti-Semite domain, we must at least double-check our friends.
I will look at out for you because faith is more powerful than logic.
Sincerely yours, Burleigh Thomas, Cambridge UK.
kiwi.
Sorry but your accusations against me are not only unsubstantiated but total FALLACIES since there is NOTHING insulting posted. FACTS while may tend to raise a feeling of humiliation are not considered as insults.
I have fully justified my every accusation be that manipulation of quotes, distortion of historic events, total ignorance of the island's history or even the title of 'propagandist' which she didn't understand.
Its actually quite suprising that she'd even react and claim that this title is an insult when she herself has posted Osman Ertug's letter to her which speaks of :
"PROMOTE OUR CAUSE"
As we've already clarified the english language is quite simple. 'Propaganda' by definition is:
>>ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause<<
Conclusion:
the title 'propagandist' IS NOT AN INSULT !!!
As I've already stated, your insistance to participate in the forum in question implied that a mature discussion would take place but instead you resorted to pathetic provocations when you saw reality, which is that YOU CAN'T REFUTE A SINGLE WORD POSTED!!! so do leave the lame excuses for someone far more gullible, your interest is not in her reputation which is allegedly attacked but you dread further humiliation.
As for the land issue, it just goes to show that you can't discuss history which you totally ignore..
Anyone and I do mean anyone with the slightest of knowledge on the Cyprus issue knows that the Turkish Cypriot population was by its majority situated in the North.
This map finely depicts the villages by population
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/
c259/panosvls/cy_1960_sm.jpg?t=
1172096967
So if the site in question is accurate in its claim of 85%, then that simply indicates that population does not indicate land ownership since approx. 20.000 (the MINORITY of the Turkish Cypriot population) Turkish Cypriots fled the South into enclaves which those you support (see TMT) kept them in by force..
Orphic Hymn,
I've read these stories about TMT 'forcing' Turkish Cypriots off their own land into enclaves. I take THAT with a grain of salt. Also, I've seen maps online backing up the property percentages I mentioned. So one of us is reading incorrect data. Which one of us is it?
I'd suggest you continue reading those accounts since they eventually will assist you to understand what really took place.
As for the map, I specifically posted one and indicated a pro-Turkish Cypriot (simple logic says its pro- since its thanks to their stance that they're making a bundle off illegally sold lands)source that suggests 85%.
If you'd like I have pro-Hellenic Cypriot sources that raise the numbers even higher, but I intentionally avoided to use them since they most probably would be titled as bias.
I hope that answers your question.
From the book 'The History of Genocide
By Sefa M. Yucel
THE DEFINITION OF GENOCIDE IN POLITICAL AND SOCIAL STUDIES
The origins of the modern term stem from the combination of the words genos (race, tribe, clan...) from the Greek and cide (massacre, killing, destruction...) from the Latin. To day genocide is a concept formulated by the Polish lawyer Raphael Lemkin, and his widely used by lawyers, psychologists, politicians, sociologists, political scientists, social scientists, ecologists, professional genocide researchers, private, national and international institutions during research, and in instances of designation in the 1948 UN Genocide Convention, genocide means: destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. On the other hand, the 1948 UN Genocide Convention drafted and then accepted by the victors of World War II. It has been thoroughly criticized in scientific circles since the 1950s. The vagueness of this concept in the scientific framework, demonstrates that it is subject to evolution. As a result of differences in the points of view of scientists working on this subject, this concept could not yet reach its conclusive definition in the scientific sense.
As mentioned above, the Polish lawyer Paphael Lemkin was the person who first defined the concept of genocide in the international arena. He was the initiator of using it and putting it on agenda and was one of the best contributor throughout the planning and finalization phases of the UN Genocide Convention From the 5th International Lawyers’ Congress held in October of 1933, Lemkin started introducing proposals and doing work on this term, to be adopted as an international penal code, adjusted and implemented in the domestic law of states, to become functional and to be accepted at the International Law Conferences (Madrid, The Hageu) in which lawyers participate. He first defined genocide in 1933 as follows:
conceived as oppressive and destructive, action, directed against individual, as a member of a national, religious, or racial group.
Lemkin said: “Genocide is directed against the national groups as an entity, and actions involved are directed against individuals, not in their individual capacity, but as members of the national group”.
As a result of mass murders conducted during World War II, the concept of genocide that drew attention after Lemkin’s intensive efforts was adopted by the UN in 1948 in accordance with the state of affairs of the period. The draft of the adopted genocide convention was slightly different from the one formed in 1946 under the international reconciliation framework.
Will continue
Source: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmfaff/113/113we45.htm
========================================================
Select Committee on Foreign Affairs Written Evidence
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Written evidence submitted by Michael Stephen[107]
WHY IS CYPRUS DIVIDED?
It is necessary to know what happened in Cyprus between the foundation of the Republic in 1960 and the Turkish intervention in 1974, not for historical interest but in order to determine whether the political status of the Greek Cypriot Administration today, and its acceptance by the world is justified. If the Turkish Cypriots had simply withdrawn from the institutions of the Republic in 1964 with no reasonable excuse, and if the Turkish army had invaded in 1974 without any legal right or humanitarian justification, then perhaps the world would be right to treat the Greek Cypriot Administration as if it were the Government of Cyprus. The truth of the matter is however very different.
This is an important question, because the ability of the Greek Cypriot Administration to enforce an embargo on Turkish Cypriot trade, sport, and communications derives from their acceptance by other countries and institutions as if they were the lawful government of all Cyprus.
The former British Prime Minister, Sir Alec Douglas-Home said in his memoirs[108] he had been convinced that if the Greek Cypriots could not treat the Turkish Cypriots as human beings they were inviting the invasion and partition of the island.
The American Under-Secretary of State, George Ball, said in his own memoirs[109], that the central interest of the Greek Cypriot leader, Makarios, "was to block off Turkish intervention so that he and his Greek Cypriots could go on happily massacring Turkish Cypriots. Obviously we would never permit that." The fact is however that neither the US, the UK, the UN, nor anyone, other than Turkey ever took effective action to prevent it.
The most remarkable feature of the Cyprus question is the extent to which the Greek Cypriots have been able to repudiate solemn international agreements[110] and violate the human rights of the Turkish Cypriots on a massive scale and yet by a quite astonishing feat of public relations, have secured for themselves acceptance as the government of all Cyprus and have persuaded the world that they, and not the Turkish Cypriots, are the injured party. The consequence of this is that they have been able to extract one-sided resolutions from the United Nations and other international organisations, and have been able to secure court judgments which have been immensely damaging to the Turkish Cypriots and have placed the Turkish Cypriots under a crippling embargo on their international trade and communications.
For more than 40 years the Turkish Cypriots and their government have been faced with one of the hardest tasks in the whole range of international affairs—how to get the world to change its mind after it has got hold of the wrong end of the stick and clung to it year after year.
The Greek Cypriots claim that the Cyprus problem was caused by the landing of Turkish troops in 1974 and that if only they would withdraw, the problem would be solved. This is a serious misconception, for the landing of Turkish troops was the consequence, not the cause, of the problem. Moreover, there were in fact two military actions in 1974; the first was by Greece and the Greek Cypriots, which caused the second by Turkey.
In the view of Greek Cypriot journalist, Aleccos Constantinides[111] the Greek Cypriot political parties DIKO and EDEK "are acting as if the Cyprus problem began and ended in 1974. They refrain from talking about the previous coups. The first coup was not in 1974, but only a few years after we had attained our independence (in 1960). Had it not been for the first coup there would not have been the 1974 coup."
Another Greek Cypriot journalist, Stavros Angelides, wrote in Fileleftheros on 16 September 1990 "With the passage of time we the Greek Cypriots forget, or wilfully disregard, the events which led to the present situation in Cyprus. We forget our faults and we ask all the more emphatically everybody else to deliver to us justice as we understand it. We talk in generalities and in vague terms about UN Resolutions, and actually mean those which favour us. The others, such as Resolution 649 are not fair—we do not want them—let them go to hell."
The independence negotiations in Zurich and London were long and difficult, but in 1960 it was agreed by way of compromise between all five participants; Britain, Greece, Turkey, the Turkish Cypriots, and the Greek Cypriots; that the new Republic of Cyprus would be a bi-communal Republic with a single territory but a unique Constitution which embodied an agreed political partnership between Greek and Turkish Cypriots, and which prohibited the political or economic union of Cyprus with any other State.
The bi-communal structure was fundamental to the 1960 accords, on the basis of which the Republic of Cyprus achieved independence, and recognition as a sovereign state from the international community. Accordingly, from its very inception the Republic of Cyprus was never a unitary state in which there is only one electorate with a majority and minority. The two peoples of Cyprus were political equals and each existed as a political entity, just as both large and small states exist within the structure of the European Union. They did not however have the same constitutional rights because the agreements took into account the fact that there were more Greek Cypriots than Turkish Cypriots.
UN Secretary-General Annan acknowledged in his plan for a Cyprus settlement[112] that "the relationship between the Turkish Cypriots and the Greek Cypriots is not one of majority and minority but of political equality where neither side may claim authority or jurisdiction over the other."
The Turkish Cypriot people, knowing that they could not enforce the agreement themselves, would never have agreed to join the 1960 Republic if the Greek Cypriots had not also accepted a Treaty of Guarantee which gave Turkey a legal right to intervene, with troops if necessary. The parties to the Treaty were the United Kingdom, Turkey, Greece, and the Republic of Cyprus itself. The Turkish Cypriots had seen what happened to the Turkish people of Crete under Greek hegemony, and knew that there would be no future for them in Cyprus without a Turkish military guarantee.
Independence was formally granted on 16 August 1960.
At the conclusion of the negotiations the Greek Cypriot leader, Archbishop Makarios, said "Sending cordial good wishes to all the Greeks and Turks of Cyprus, I greet with joy the Agreement reached and proclaim with confidence that this day will be the beginning of a new period of progress and prosperity for our country". However, it soon became clear that the Greek Cypriots did not intend to abide by the Constitution, and that their entry into that solemn legal obligation with the Turkish Cypriots in 1960 had been a deception. On 28 July 1960 President Makarios said "the agreements do not form the goal—they are the present and not the future. The Greek Cypriot people will continue their national cause and shape their future in accordance with THEIR will.
In a speech on 4 September 1962, at Panayia, Makarios said "Until this Turkish community forming part of the Turkish race which has been the terrible enemy of Hellenism is expelled, the duty of the heroes of EOKA[113] can never be considered as terminated." It would be difficult to imagine a more vindictive, racist, policy than this. It is also a Greek expansionist policy—the very charge which the Greek Cypriots laid against Turkey when Turkey intervened twelve years later to put an end to it.
George Ball[114] quotes Adlai Stevenson as saying that Makarios, was "a wicked, unreliable conniver, who concealed his venality under the sanctimonious vestments of a religious leader" and comments that "In the years I had known Adlai I had never heard him speak of anyone with such vitriol."
Article 173 of the Cyprus Constitution provided for separate municipalities for Turkish Cypriots in the five main towns. The Greek Cypriots refused to obey this mandatory provision and in order to encourage them to do so the Turkish Cypriots said they would not vote for some of the Government's taxation proposals. The Greek Cypriots remained intransigent, so the Turkish Cypriots took the matter to the Supreme Constitutional Court of Cyprus. The court comprised one Greek Cypriot judge, one Turkish Cypriot judge, and a neutral President.
In February 1963 Archbishop Makarios declared on behalf of the Greek Cypriots that if the Court ruled against them they would ignore it[115] On 25 April 1963 the Court did rule against them[116] and they did ignore it. The President of the Court (a German citizen) resigned and the rule of law in Cyprus collapsed.
In November 1963 the Greek Cypriots went further, and demanded the abolition of eight of the basic articles which had been included in the 1960 Agreement for the protection of the Turkish Cypriots. The aim was to reduce the Turkish Cypriot people to the status of a mere minority, wholly subject to the control of the Greek Cypriots, pending their ultimate expulsion from the island. The Greek Cypriots had prepared a written plan for this purpose, called the Akritas Plan.
Glafcos Clerides, later the Greek Cypriot President, wrote his memoirs, entitled "Cyprus—My Deposition" in four volumes, published by Alithia publishing company, Nicosia, 1989-91. In these memoirs he admits that there was no need for constitutional amendments. According to him, "Makarios, at the head of the bi-communal state of Cyprus, had decided to proceed, stage by stage, to the unilateral abrogation of the rights granted to the Turkish community by the Zurich and London Agreements and to reduce its political status to a minority, using prematurely, the excuse of the unworkability of certain provisions of the constitution."
He goes on to say that "An honest evaluation of the situation during the period 1960-63, divorced from propaganda would lead to the conclusion that there was no need to press for constitutional amendments". Nevertheless according to Clerides, Makarios "refused to accept practical solutions failing short of constitutional amendments"
Clerides admits that "the delicate period of 1960-63, when both communities were questioning the sincerity of the other over their real commitment to independence, was not the proper time to request constitutional amendments on the grounds that the constitution was unworkable, when in fact unworkability could not be established".
Greek Cypriots claim that constitutional amendments were inevitable because the Turkish Cypriots abused their veto power, but according to Clerides: "The veto powers were not used either by the President or the Vice President on any law or decision of the House of Representatives . . .
Furthermore, he says "there was no difficulty in promulgating the decisions of the Council of Ministers and the laws of the House of Representatives."
Clerides continued: "If the Turkish Cypriots resist "unilateral amendments of the Constitution" where their rights would be abrogated, the forces of the Minister of Interior will use force to "put down the uprising". Lt General George Karayiannis (the mainland Greek Army Officer then in command of the Cyprus Army) told Ethnikos Kiryx, an Athens Daily, on 13 June 1965 that "President Makarios decided (a) to proceed to organise the Greek Cypriots for battle and arm them, and (b) to proceed with the revision of the Constitution, including the cancellation of the [Turkish Cypriot] Vice-President's Veto."
"When the Turkish Cypriots objected to the amendment of the constitution Makarios put his plan into effect, and the Greek Cypriot attack began in December 1963"—(Lt Gen Karayiannis)[117] The General is referring to the "Akritas" plan, which was the blueprint for the annihilation of the Turkish Cypriots and the annexation of the island to Greece.
At Christmas 1963 the Greek Cypriot militia attacked Turkish Cypriot communities across the island, and very many men, women, and children were killed. 270 of their mosques, shrines and other places of worship were desecrated.
On 28 December 1963 the Daily Express carried the following report from Cyprus: "We went tonight into the sealed-off Turkish Cypriot Quarter of Nicosia in which 200 to 300 people had been slaughtered in the last five days. We were the first Western reporters there and we have seen sights too frightful to be described in print. Horror so extreme that the people seemed stunned beyond tears."
On 31 December 1963 The Guardian reported: "It is nonsense to claim, as the Greek Cypriots do, that all casualties were caused by fighting between armed men of both sides. On Christmas Eve many Turkish Cypriot people were brutally attacked and murdered in their suburban homes, including the wife and children of a doctor—allegedly by a group of forty men, many in army boots and greatcoats." Although the Turkish Cypriots fought back as best they could, and killed some militia, there were no massacres of Greek Cypriot civilians.
On 1 January 1964 the Daily Herald reported: "When I came across the Turkish Cypriot homes they were an appalling sight. Apart from the walls they just did not exist. I doubt if a napalm attack could have created more devastation. Under roofs which had caved in I found a twisted mass of bed springs, children's cots, and grey ashes of what had once been tables, chairs and wardrobes. In the neighbouring village of Ayios Vassilios I counted 16 wrecked and burned out homes. They were all Turkish Cypriot. In neither village did I find a scrap of damage to any Greek Cypriot house."
On 2 January 1964 the Daily Telegraph wrote "The Greek Cypriot community should not assume that the British military presence can or should secure them against Turkish intervention if they persecute the Turkish Cypriots. We must not be a shelter for double-crossers." Britain did not however make any serious attempt to stop the Greek Cypriots.
On 12 January 1964 the British High Commission in Nicosia wrote to London[118] "The Greek (Cypriot) police are led by extremists who provoked the fighting and deliberately engaged in atrocities. They have recruited into their ranks as "special constables" gun-happy young thugs. They threaten to try and punish any Turkish Cypriot police who wish to return to the Cyprus Government. . . . . . . . Makarios assured us there will be no attack. His assurance is as worthless as previous assurances have proved."
The British Government noted[119] that George Ball "thought that Makarios' aim was to get the Cyprus problem into the UN orbit where the slogan of self-determination, supported by the communist bloc and the neutralists, could exert pressure towards the establishment of an independent unitary state, where he could do what he liked with the Turkish Cypriots."
On 14 January 1964 the Daily Telegraph reported that the Turkish Cypriot inhabitants of Ayios Vassilios had been massacred on 26 December 1963, and reported their exhumation from a mass grave in the presence of the Red Cross. A further massacre of Turkish Cypriots, at Limassol, was reported by The Observer on 16 February 1964, and there were many more. On 17 February 1964 the Washington Post reported that "Greek Cypriot fanatics appear bent on a policy of genocide." The Greek Cypriot Minister of the Interior admitted[120] that he had controlled the attack in Limassol himself.
British troops in Cyprus at the time did what they could to protect the Turkish Cypriots, and their efforts are remembered to this day, but the scale and ferocity of the Greek Cypriot attacks, and lack of political will in London, made their task impossible. On 6 February 1964 a British patrol found armed Greek Cypriot police attacking the Turkish Cypriots of Ayios Sozomenos, but they were unable to stop the attack.
On 13 February 1964 the Greeks and Greek Cypriots attacked the Turkish Cypriot quarter of Limassol with tanks, killing 16 and injuring 35. On 15 February 1964 The Daily Telegraph reported: "It is a real military operation which the Greek Cypriots launched against the six thousand inhabitants of the Turkish Cypriot Quarter yesterday morning. A spokesman for the Greek Cypriot Government has recognised this officially. It is hard to conceive how Greek and Turkish Cypriots may seriously contemplate working together after all that has happened."
On 10 September 1964 the UN Secretary-General reported (UN doc. S/5950):
"UNFICYP carried out a detailed survey of all damage to properties throughout the island during the disturbances, . . . . . . . . . it shows that in 109 villages, most of them Turkish-Cypriot or mixed villages, 527 houses have been destroyed while 2,000 others have suffered damage from looting. In Ktima 38 houses and shops have been destroyed totally and 122 partially. In the Orphomita suburb of Nicosia, 50 houses have been totally destroyed while a further 240 have been partially destroyed there and in adjacent suburbs."
The UK House of Commons Select Committee on Foreign Affairs reviewed the Cyprus question in 1987[121] and reported unanimously that, "Although the Cyprus Government now claims to have been seeking to "operate the 1960 Constitution modified to the extent dictated by the necessities of the situation" this claim ignores the fact that both before and after the events of December 1963 the Makarios Government continued to advocate the cause of ENOSIS [annexation to Greece] and actively pursued the amendment of the Constitution and the related treaties to facilitate this ultimate objective".
The Committee continued : "Moreover in June 1967 the Greek Cypriot legislature unanimously passed a resolution in favour of ENOSIS, in blatant contravention of the 1960 Treaties and Constitution."[122]
Professor Ernst Forsthoff, the neutral President of the Supreme Constitutional Court of Cyprus until 1963 told Die Welt on 27 December 1963 "Makarios bears on his shoulders the sole responsibility of the recent tragic events. His aim is to deprive the Turkish community of their rights." In an interview with UPI press agency on 30 December 1963 he said: "All this happened because Makarios wanted to remove all constitutional rights from the Turkish Cypriots."
George Ball also recalls[123] that during his visit to Cyprus in the Spring of 1964, Sir Cyril Pickard, the British Under-secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations, "denounced the Archbishop in devastating language for the outrages inflicted on the Turkish Cypriots." Ball himself told the Greek Cypriot leader that "if he persisted in his cruel and reckless conduct Turkey would inevitably invade, and neither the US nor any other western power would raise a finger to stop them."
He further recalls[124] that "a massacre took place in Limassol on the south coast in which as I recall about 50 Turkish Cypriots were killed, in some cases by bulldozers crushing their flimsy homes. I said to Makarios sharply that such beastly actions had to stop." Fine words—but nothing was done. On his visit to Athens at that time George Ball records[125] that "Greek Prime Minister [George] Papandreou contended that the "turbulence" over Cyprus resulted only from Turkey's invasion threats. I told him that although I had heard all that before it simply was not true."
The United Nations not only failed to condemn the usurpation of the legal order in Cyprus by force, but actually rewarded it by treating the by then wholly Greek Cypriot administration as if it were the Government of Cyprus. This acceptance has continued to the present day, and reflects no credit upon the United Nations, nor upon Britain, the US and the other countries, including now the EU, who have acquiesced in it.
Despite the arrival of UN troops in Cyprus in March 1964 the Greek Cypriots had continued their attacks on Turkish Cypriot civilians. In June 1964 the position of the Turkish Cypriots became so serious that public opinion in Turkey felt that they could no longer stand by. They therefore warned that they would intervene under Article 4 of the Treaty of Guarantee[126]
On 7 August 1964 the Greek Cypriots attacked Turkish Cypriot villages, provoking the Turkish government to send four warplanes to attack the Greek Cypriot village of Polis. On 8 August thirty Turkish jets flew low over Greek Cypriot towns on the north coast, and on 9 August, sixty-four Turkish planes flew low over north-west Cyprus.
On 12 August the US Ambassador to Greece was instructed to urge the Greek government to stop the attacks on Turkish Cypriots, and Kruschev told the Greek Cypriots that they could expect no support from the Soviet Union[127] Finally the Greek Cypriots desisted, but had it not been for these warning flights there would have been few Turkish Cypriots left alive. They were saved by the Turkish Air Force, not by the UN.
Turkey did not land troops, because they were threatened by a letter from US President Johnson on 5 June 1964 that if Turkey were invaded by the Soviets America would not comply with its NATO obligation to defend them. This was an arrogant, illegal, and empty threat, for America's responsibility under the North Atlantic Treaty was clear, and there is no possibility that America's own strategic interests could permit a Soviet takeover of Turkey or the Dardanelles. The threat was nevertheless enough to postpone Turkish intervention for another ten years.
The Turkish Cypriots were forced to withdraw into defended enclaves, and it was therefore in January 1964, not in 1974, that Cyprus was divided. On 14 January 1964 "Il Giorno" of Italy reported: "Right now we are witnessing the exodus of Turkish Cypriots from the villages. Thousands of people abandoning homes, land, herds. Greek Cypriot terrorism is relentless. This time the rhetoric of the Hellenes and the statues of Plato do not cover up their barbaric and ferocious behaviour." The Turkish Cypriots had to establish an elected authority to govern themselves whilst confined in their enclaves.
Britain and the US have, in their own interests, encouraged the world to treat the Greek Cypriots alone as the government of all Cyprus, despite Britain's own acknowledgement[128] that "Cyprus Government" could mean only a government which acts with the concurrence of its Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot members. There has been no concurrence since 1963, and there is no "doctrine of necessity" which allows one partner to assault and terrorise the other and then claim the right to run the State alone. The Greek Cypriots have been asking the Turkish Cypriots to go back since 1967, but on terms which abrogate their basic rights and which they could not possibly accept. The Greek Cypriots have no incentive to settle so long as they continue to be treated as the "Government of Cyprus," and enabled to keep the Turkish Cypriots for so long as they please under an embargo[129] against their trade and communications without any authority under Chapter VII of the UN Charter
When in 1983 the Turkish Cypriots declared their own Republic, Britain and the US, acted against them at the UN. They promoted Security Council Resolutions 541 and 550, which purported to declare the Declaration of Independence "legally invalid," and called upon states not to recognise the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. However, the Security Council failed to examine the legal basis for that proposition. It has never been specified whether the constitutional law of Cyprus or international law is said to be the basis of such "illegality." It has never been explained how the 1960 constitution, having been repudiated and expressly abrogated by the Greek Cypriots as long ago as 1963, could still be binding upon the Turkish Cypriots in 1983.
Although the UK Government deals with the Greek Cypriot Administration as if they were the lawful Government of Cyprus, it does not formally recognise them as such. On 25 April 1980 the Secretary of State for Foreign & Commonwealth Affairs made the following statement in the House of Lords[130]: "We have conducted a re-examination of British policy and practice concerning the recognition of Governments. This has included a comparison with the practice of our partners and allies. On the basis of this review we have decided that we shall no longer accord recognition to Governments. The British Government recognises States in accordance with common international doctrine."
On 30 July 1980 the Minister of State reiterated[131] that "the British Government recognises States, not Governments" and this was affirmed again on 12th November 1987[132] The United States takes the same position. Accordingly, if the British and US Governments recognise States not Governments, neither the Greek Cypriot nor the Turkish Cypriot administration is recognised by them as the Government of Cyprus.
Security Council Resolutions 541 and 550 seek to discourage the recognition of more than one State in Cyprus, but they do not purport to confer recognition upon the Greek Cypriot Administration as the government of that State.
On 12 August 1964 the UK Representative to the UN wrote to his government as follows:
"What is our policy and true feelings about the future of Cyprus and about Makarios? Judging from the English newspapers and many others, the feeling is very strong indeed against Makarios and his so-called government and nothing would please the British people more than to see him toppled and the Cyprus problem solved by the direct dealings between the Turks and the Greeks. Sometimes it seems that the obsession of some people with "the Commonwealth" blinds us to everything else and it would be high treason to take a more active line against Makarios and his henchmen. At other times the dominant feature seems to be concern lest active opposition against Makarios should lead to direct conflict with the [Greek] Cypriots and end up with our losing our military bases."
After 1963 Turkish Cypriot MPs, judges, and other officials were intimidated or prevented by force from carrying out their duties. The UK House of Commons Select Committee said[133] "The effect of the crisis of December 1963 was to deliver control of the formal organs of Government into the hands of the Greek Cypriots alone. Claiming to be acting in accordance with "the doctrine of necessity" the Greek Cypriot members of the House of Representatives enacted a series of laws which provided for the operation of the organs of government without Turkish Cypriot participation."
The Select Committee continued at para. 29 "Equally damaging from the Turkish Cypriot point of view was what they considered to be their effective exclusion from representation at, and participation in, the international fora where their case could have been deployed . . . . . . . . . . . . ." "An official Turkish Cypriot presence in the international political scene virtually disappeared overnight." It is not therefore surprising that the world has been persuaded to the Greek Cypriot point of view.
More than 300 Turkish Cypriots are still missing without trace from these massacres of 1963-64. These dreadful events were not the responsibility of "the Greek Colonels" (who were not then in power) nor an unrepresentative handful of Greek Cypriot extremists. The persecution of the Turkish Cypriots was an act of policy on the part of the Greek Cypriot political and religious leadership, which has to this day made no serious attempt to bring the murderers to justice.
Instead they have denied the facts and claimed that there were just a few spordic killings for which both sides were equally to blame. As recently as September 2004 the Greek Cypriot Administration claimed that there had been no massacres at all of Turkish Cypriots. This was received with disbelief even by the Greek Cypriot Cyprus Mail. A Greek Cypriot journalist, Antonis Angastionotis, concerned that the truth had been kept from the Greek Cypriot people for so long, has made a documentary film entitled "The Voice of Blood" which shows the attempted genocide carried out against the Turkish Cypriots by Greek Cypriots in the villages of Murataga-Sandallar-Atly«lar and Taskent in 1974. It is unlikely that this documentary will be shown on greek television.
The Greek Cypriot attitude is both sad and foolish. They will never convince the Turkish Cypriots that the massacres did not happen, and until they admit that they did happen, and seek forgiveness, the process of reconciliation cannot begin. There are good people in Southern Cyprus who would be willing to do that, but there are others in powerful positions there who will never admit the truth lest it should undermine the wholly unjustified political position which they have built for the Greek Cypriot Administration in the world.
The UK Commons Select Committee found[134] that, "There is little doubt that much of the violence which the Turkish Cypriots claim led to the total or partial destruction of 103 Turkish villages and the displacement of about a quarter of the total Turkish Cypriot population, was either directly inspired by, or certainly connived at, by the Greek Cypriot leadership".
The UN Secretary-General reported to the Security Council[135] "When the disturbances broke out in December 1963 and continued during the first part of 1964 thousands of Turkish-Cypriots fled their homes, taking with them only what they could drive or carry, and sought refuge in safer villages and areas." In September 1964 the Secretary-General reported to the Security Council[136] "In addition to losses incurred in agriculture and in industry during the first part of the year, the Turkish Cypriot community had lost other sources of its income including the salaries of over 4,000 persons who were employed by the Cyprus Government." The trade of the Turkish Cypriot community had considerably declined during the period, and unemployment reached a very high level of approximately 25,000 breadwinners.
Turkish-Cypriots had become refugees in their own land. Expenditure of the Turkish Communal Chamber collapsed, as a yearly subsidy formerly received from the Government had ceased in 1964. A large part of its remaining resources had to be used for unemployment relief and other forms of compensation as approximately half the entire Turkish Cypriot population came to be on relief.
On 10 September 1964 the UN Secretary-General reported[137] "The economic restrictions being imposed against the Turkish Cypriot communities, which in some instances has been so severe as to amount to veritable siege, indicated that the Government of Cyprus seeks to force a potential solution by economic pressure." This is still true today.
On 24 July 1965 the United Kingdom formally protested the unlawful action of the Greek Cypriots, but continued to deal with them as the Government of Cyprus, and took no effective action to stop them doing as they pleased. During the period 1963 to 1974 the freedom of movement of Turkish-Cypriots was severely restricted[138] They were denied postal services[139] Their access to building materials, electrical equipment, motor parts, fuel, chemicals and many other commodities was severely restricted[140] and Turkish-Cypriot refugees had to live in tents and caves.
The UK Commons Select Committee[141] found that "When in July 1965 the Turkish Cypriot members of the House of Representatives had sought to resume their seats they were told that they could do so only if they accepted the legislative changes to the operation of the Constitution enacted in their absence" (ie. if they agreed to fundamental constitutional changes to the great disadvantage of their community, imposed upon them by force of arms). The Select Committee continued: "In February 1966 Makarios declared that the 1960 Agreements had been abrogated and buried."
Greek Cypriot policy after 1963 was summarised as follows in Fileleftheros on 20 September 1992: "we the Greek Cypriots are in full control of the Government. All the Ministers are Greeks. Our government is the only one recognised internationally—why should we bring the [Turkish Cypriots] back in? The [Turkish Cypriots] today control only 3% of the land. They have no rich resources and they are living through difficult times from an economic point of view. They will ultimately have to accept our point of view—or go."
The Greek Cypriots sometimes allege that it was they who were attacked, by the Turkish Cypriots, who were determined to wreck the 1960 agreements. However, the Turkish Cypriots were not only outnumbered by nearly four to one; they were also surrounded in their villages by armed Greek Cypriots. They had no heavy weapons, they had no way of protecting their women and children, and Turkey was 40 miles away across the sea. The very idea that in those circumstances the Turkish Cypriots were the aggressors, is absurd.
The distinguished philosopher, Michael Moran, of Sussex University, made the following diagnosis of Greek Cypriot attitudes[142]: "It was because they were under a kind of ideological spell, a collective mental condition similar to what Marxists used to call "false-consciousness" that the Greek Cypriots could embark upon their particular course of action in December 1963 with all the zeal and confidence they did. Brainwashed through at least a hundred years of school-teaching and sermonising into a set of beliefs pathologically at odds with any plausible account of historical and political realities; lacking contact with a counterbalancing tradition of rational criticism; for the most part incapable of ironic scepticism towards theological obfuscation—the Greek Cypriot leaders were effectively de-sensitised to the equally important rights of the Turkish Cypriots. In this way they were able to treat their Turkish compatriots with such consistent and irrational abuse, hardly noticing that this was in fact what they were doing."
The Matron of the Nicosia Hospital, Nurse Trkan Aziz MBE recalled in her memoirs[143] how Greek Cypriot militia roamed the hospital wards killing the Turkish Cypriot patients[144] Later she found the bodies of two Turkish Cypriot boys to whom she had given refuge in her own apartments at the hospital. "The two sat on chairs exactly where I had left them, but this time they did not rise to greet me with smiles. Dark blood welled through the tattered remnants of their shirts and dripped on the carpet. Their Greek Cypriot "guard" had vanished, spraying the staircase senselessly with bullets as he left"[145]
Matron Aziz describes the horror of Ayios Vasilios as follows[146]
"a few feet down they found the first bodies, three men thrown on top of each other, then a boy whose hands had been tied behind his knees, then a little girl, then an old man dressed in his peasant-style baggy trousers, then some women. There were 21 bodies, almost all dressed, but not in hospital garb. These were Turkish Cypriot families who had lived in Ayios Vasilios."
The relevance of "hospital garb" is that the Greek Cypriots "revealed a new depth of sickness of the mind by insisting the bodies were of patients in the hospital who had died of natural causes[147] They had issued a press statement saying "Turks distort the truth."
On 28 July 1965[148] the former British Minister, Duncan Sandys said in the House of Commons: "the flagrantly illegal action of the Cyprus government gives to Turkey an unquestionable right under the Treaty of Guarantee to intervene in order to restore the Constitution."
The Greek Cypriots, still not confident that they could eliminate the Turkish Cypriots without help from Greece, began to augment their forces soon after the events of 1963. In his book "Democracy at Gunpoint" Andreas Papandreou recalls that in 1964 "A clandestine operation began on a huge scale; of nightly shipments of arms and "volunteers" who arrive in Cyprus in civilian clothes and then join their Greek Cypriot units."
"Newsweek" had likewise reported on 27 July 1964 that: "Before dawn each day the great iron doors of the port of Limassol are slammed shut . . . UN troops are barred. A few hours later the doors swing open and covered lorries, weaving on overloaded springs, roar out of the port and head toward the Troodos mountains."
Despite the withdrawal of Turkish Cypriots into defended enclaves, they were subjected to further massacres of civilians in 1967 when, on 27 March the Greeks and Greek Cypriots shelled the village of Mari for four hours. On 15 November 1967 2,000 armed men with artillery and armoured forces attacked the Turkish Cypriot quarter of Ayios Theodoros. At the same time the village of Getcikale (Kophinou) was attacked. During these attacks UN soldiers watched helpless as women children, and old men were killed—many burned alive in their own homes—and 50 houses were destroyed. Only further warning flights by the Turkish Air Force prevented more massacres at this time, and forced the withdrawal of some of the mainland Greek forces which had been illegally built up in Cyprus.
And what was the reaction of the international community?
They did not launch air attacks against the Greek Cypriots, as they later did against the Serbs—they did not complain about ethnic cleansing, or "attempts to change the demographic character of Cyprus." They expressed no concern for Turkish Cypriot refugees and missing persons, nor for the homes, farms and businesses they had lost,—and they did not complain about the 20,000 Greek troops on the island. Instead they rewarded the Greek Cypriots by treating them as the Government of all Cyprus.
In 1971 General Grivas returned to Cyprus to form EOKA-B, which was committed to making Cyprus a wholly Greek island and annexing it to Greece. In a speech to the Greek Cypriot armed forces[149] Grivas said. "The Greek forces from Greece have come to Cyprus in order to impose the will of the Greeks of Cyprus upon the Turks. We want ENOSIS but the Turks are against it. We shall impose our will. We are strong and we shall do so."
By 15 July 1974 a powerful force of mainland Greek troops had assembled in Cyprus and with their backing the Greek Cypriot National Guard overthrew Makarios and installed one Nicos Sampson as "President." On 22nd July Washington Star News reported: "Bodies littered the streets and there were mass burials . . . People told by Makarios to lay down their guns were shot by the National Guard."
Turkish Cypriots appealed to the Guarantor powers for help, but only Turkey was willing to make any effective response." On 20 July 1974 Turkey intervened under Article IV of the Treaty of Guarantee"—(UK Foreign & Commonwealth Office doc. CPS/75, Jan, 1987). The Greek newspaper Eleftherotipia published an interview with Nicos Sampson on 26 February 1981 in which he said "Had Turkey not intervened I would not only have proclaimed ENOSIS—I would have annihilated the Turks of Cyprus."
On 17 April 1991 US Ambassador Nelson Ledsky testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that "Most of the "missing persons" disappeared in the first days of July 1974, before the Turkish intervention on the 20th. Many killed on the Greek side were killed by Greek Cypriots in fighting between supporters of Makarios and Sampson." On 6th November 1974 TA NEA newspaper reported the erasure of dates from the graves of Greek Cypriots killed in the five days 15—20 July, in order to blame their deaths on the subsequent Turkish military action.
On 3 March 1996 the Greek Cypriot Cyprus Mail wrote: "[Greek] Cypriot governments have found it convenient to conceal the scale of atrocities during the 15th July coup in an attempt to downplay its contribution to the tragedy of the summer of 1974 and instead blame the Turkish invasion for all casualties. There can be no justification for any government that failed to investigate this sensitive humanitarian issue. The shocking admission by the Clerides government that there are people buried in Nicosia cemetery who are still included in the list of the "missing" is the last episode of a human drama which has been turned into a propaganda tool."
Referring to the wife of a Greek Cypriot "missing person" whom he had interviewed, the Greek Cypriot journalist George Lanitis wrote[150] "The woman was used ruthlessly by the Cyprus propaganda machine to impress on world opinion the unquestionably tragic situation of the relatives of the missing persons. She was fooled. I was fooled and many other journalists were fooled and we fooled our readers. I apologise, but I acted like the rest of them, bona fide."
In the village of Tokhni on 14 August 1974 all the Turkish Cypriot men between the ages of 13 and 74, except for eighteen who managed to escape, were taken away and shot. (Times, Guardian, 21 August)
In Zyyi on the same day all the Turkish-Cypriot men aged between 19 and 38 were taken away and were never seen again. On the same day Greek-Cypriots opened fire in the Turkish-Cypriot neighbourhood of Paphos killing men, women, and children indiscriminately. On 23 July 1974 the Washington Post reported "In a Greek raid on a small Turkish village near Limassol 36 people out of a population of 200 were killed. The Greeks said that they had been given orders to kill the inhabitants of the Turkish villages before the Turkish forces arrived."[151]
"The Greeks began to shell the Turkish quarter on Saturday, refugees said. Kazan Dervis, a Turkish Cypriot girl aged 15, said she had been staying with her uncle. The [Greek Cypriot] National Guard came into the Turkish sector and shooting began. She saw her uncle and other relatives taken away as prisoners, and later heard her uncle had been shot."[152]
On 28 July the New York Times reported that 14 Turkish-Cypriot men had been shot in Alaminos. On 24 July 1974 "France Soir" reported "The Greeks burned Turkish mosques and set fire to Turkish homes in the villages around Famagusta. Defenceless Turkish villagers who have no weapons live in an atmosphere of terror and they evacuate their homes and go and live in tents in the forests. The Greeks' actions are a shame to humanity."
On 22 July Turkish Prime Minister Ecevit called upon the UN to "stop the genocide of Turkish-Cypriots" and declared "Turkey has accepted a cease-fire, but will not allow Turkish-Cypriots to be massacred."[153] The German newspaper Die Zeit wrote on 30 August 1974 "the massacre of Turkish Cypriots in Paphos and Famagusta is the proof of how justified the Turks were to undertake their intervention".
According to the Daily Telegraph156:"Turkish Cypriots, who had suffered from physical attacks since 1963, called on the guarantor powers to prevent a Greek conquest of the island. When Britain did nothing Turkey invaded Cyprus and occupied its northern part. Turkish Cypriots have constitutional right on their side and understandably fear a renewal of persecution if the[154] Turkish army withdraws".
"Turkey intervened to protect the lives and property of the Turkish-Cypriots, and to its credit it has done just that. In the 12 years since, there have been no killings and no massacres" Lord Willis (Labour) House of Lords 17th December 1986[155]
The 1976 UK House of Commons Select Committee on Cyprus found[156] that Turkey had proposed joint Anglo-Turkish action under the Treaty of Guarantee, and this was confirmed by Prime Minister Ecevit on 14th August 1974[157] However the Labour Government in Britain refused to take any effective action, even though they had troops and aircraft in the Sovereign Bases in Cyprus. They argued that Britain was under no duty to take military action, but Article 2 of the Treaty provided that Britain would guarantee the state of affairs established by the basic articles of the 1960 Constitution, which it manifestly failed to do. The Select Committee concluded that "Britain had a legal right to intervene, she had a moral obligation to intervene. She did not intervene for reasons which the Government refuses to give."
Some people argue that having defeated the Sampson coup, and Makarios having returned to the Presidential Palace, Turkey should have withdrawn and left the Turkish Cypriots again at the mercy of Makarios, the man who had been responsible for the earlier massacres. That proposition has only to be stated for its absurdity to be appreciated. It must be remembered that UN troops had been in Cyprus since March 1964 and had failed to protect the Turkish Cypriots. The Turkish Cypriots were later to see what happened to the Moslem people of Srebrenica under international protection.
Turkey could discharge its treaty obligation only by providing a safe haven for the Turkish Cypriots in which they could live in peace and freedom, and by encouraging them to reach a new political arrangement with the Greek Cypriots in which they could play their part as political equals in the government of the island. This Turkey has done, and has been praised by the UN, the US, and the EU for the role it has played in persuading the Turkish Cypriots to accept the Annan Plan in April 2004.
Even if the Treaty of Guarantee had not existed Turkey would have been wholly justified in intervening to protect the Turkish Cypriots from attempted genocide and remaining there for as long as their protection was needed, on the same legal basis as NATO intervened to protect ethnic Albanians in Kosovo from attempted genocide.
The United Nations, the Commonwealth, and the rest of the world have put political expediency before principle, and failed to condemn the appalling behaviour of the Greek Cypriots. Greek Cypriots are guilty of attempted genocide in violation of Articles 2(a), (b) and (c) and Articles 3(a), (b), (c), (d) and (e) of the 1948 Genocide Convention, but no action has ever been taken against them. Instead they have been rewarded by being treated as the Government of all Cyprus. The Turkish Cypriots by contrast were frozen out of the UN, the Commonwealth and almost every other international organisation, and were not even allowed to be heard when important decisions affecting their future were made.
This act of betrayal by the United Nations itself has enabled the Greek Cypriots for more than forty years to treat the Turkish Cypriots as a mere community, to take most of the international aid for themselves, to embargo Turkish Cypriot trade and communications with the outside world, to occupy the Cyprus chair in all international institutions, and to convince the world that they, and not the Turkish Cypriots are the injured party.
Even today, despite having voted to accept the Annan Plan in April 2004, the Turkish Cypriots are still frozen out of their rightful place in the world, and still suffer a wholly unjustified embargo on their trade and communications. What have the Turkish Cypriots done to deserve such treatment?
Michael Stephen
30 September 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
107 Michael Stephen LL.M. is a Barrister and international lawyer and was a member of the UK Parliament 1992-97. He held a Harkness Fellowship in International Law at Stanford and Harvard, and was Assistant Legal Adviser to the UK Ambassador to the UN for the 25th General Assembly. He is the author of "The Cyprus Question." (London, July 2001).
108 "The Way The Wind Blows" Collins 1976, p.242.
109 "The Past has Another Pattern" Norton 1982 at p.345.
110 Zurich and London Agreements on Cyprus 1960; European Convention on Human Rights & Fundamental Freedoms.
111 Alithia 14.12.85.
112 31st March 2004-Main Article iii.
113 The Greek Cypriot terrorist organisation.
114 page 340.
115 Cyprus Mail 12.2.63.
116 Turkish Communal Chamber v Council of Ministers 5 CLR (1963) 59, 77, 78.
117 "Ethnikos Kiryx" 15.6.65.
118 Telegram no. 162/1964
119 FO doc. 1057 of 15.2.1964
120 The Guardian 26th February 1964.
121 H.C. no. 23 of 1986-87. 2nd July 1987.
122 Art. 1 of the Treaty of Guarantee declares prohibited any action likely to promote directly or indirectly union with any other state or partition of the island, and Art. 185(2) of the Constitution is to similar effect.
123 op. cit. p.345.
124 ibid.
125 op. cit. p.353.
126 "In the event of a breach of the provisions of the present Treaty, Greece, Turkey and the United Kingdom undertake to consult together with respect to the representations or measures necessary to ensure observance of those provisions. In so far as common or concerted action may not prove possible, each of the three guaranteeing Powers reserves the right to take action with the sole aim of re-establishing the state of affairs created by the present Treaty."
127 George W. Ball "The Past has Another Pattern" Norton 1982 at p.357.
128 FO telegram 1131 of 12th March 1964.
129 See Haktanir "Under the Shadow of the Embargo"" 2001 Center for Strategic Research.
130 Hansard vol. 408 col. 1121. See also Hansard (Commons) vol. 983 WA cols. 277-9 25th April 1980.
131 Hansard (Commons) vol. 989 WA col. 723. See also vol. 122 WA col. 240 (12th Nov. 1987).
132 Hansard (Commons) vol. 122 WA col. 240.
133 H.C. no. 23 of 1986-87. 2nd July 1987, para. 28.
134 ibid para. 27.
135 UN doc. S/8286.
136 UN doc. 5950.
137 UN doc. S/5950.
138 UN docs. S/5764, S/5950, S/7350.
139 UN docs. S/5950. S/7001.
140 UN docs. S/5950, S/7350.
141 H.C. no. 23 of 1986-87.
142 "Sovereignty Divided"-1998 p.12.
143 "The Death of Friendship" Charles Bravos Publishers, London, 2000. ISBN 0-9514464-3-6.
144 Chapter 9.
145 page 84.
146 page 89.
147 page 90.
148 Hansard col. 466.
149 "New Cyprus" May 1987.
150 Cyprus Weekly 7 May 1998
151 See also The Times and The Guardian, 23 July 1974.
152 The Times 23.7.74.
153 ibid.
154 15.8.96.
155 Hansard, col. 223.
156 HC 331 1975/76 para. 22.
157 Daily Telegraph 15 August 1974.
Way to go, Kiwi! I would like to see if Orphic is even capable of tearing that appart and make an ounce of sense!
First of all dear Rachel and Wiki, the role of British Imperialsm has been Illustrated in various sections of this blog and outside of it. The British, undoubtedly began the mess, something that all of you have already agreed with.
The British found an ally with the Turkish Cypriots after Greek Administration announced its plans for Enosis. Ever since the British have aided the Turkish Cypriot side, both militarily and politically.
This essay considering that it comes from official british sources just goes to further justify their role in the Cyprus Issue. The author neglects to mention the TMT, and also neglects to mention the british role in role. A fact that casts his essay as biased and unworthy of attention. His target is to victimize the Turkish Cypriots and demonize the Greeks in an Issue, where both Greek and Turkish sides have admitted that they were dupped by the British. And since the British, naturally will try to throw the blame at the one who started fighting against them.
As other have already said, the Turks and the Greeks live in harmony in various places , except Cyprus, your stances and do not aid the communities in approaching each other, but they just promote irredentism and hate. The Greeks and the Turks have always found solutions to their problems, without the aid of a an American Jew or a Hawaian.
No greek has ever denied the atrocities commited during the 60's, and no Turk has ever denied the atrocities committed by the military intervention, and no side has denied that the British, ignited the whole situation. The only deniers here are the British, for blaming the Greeks, and this blog fro the same reasons.
I was under the distinct impression - as well as a lot of other sources - that TMT was formed IN RESPONSE to EOKA.
What on earth does "in responce to EOKA" actually mean ??
If you mean raising the Turkish Cypriots against their strife of ridding the island of British yoke, instigating hatred and supressing any voice in favor of co-existance between the two communities.. well then you're on the right track..
When i first saw that post, i thought that the supplier would be smart enough to add some comments i expected from smart people, or at least that someone would identify them. A good 5 days i think have passed and the only thing i saw, from you Rachel was appraisal. I am starting to think, that i completely wasted my time here since the participants are unable to comprehend the blatant truth, but rather play as we used to play hide and seek and fight for the best hiding spot. Once again i am disappointed and somehow obliged to return.
Kiwi, the Eoka was created in response to the British. The British helped create TMT in response to Eoka. And Eoka-B was created in response to TMT. In time line as well.
If someone doesn't get it still. Then someone is either not reading properly or reads and understands only what suits his perceived/subjective reality.
The current British position(the one you supplied) as anonymous said is just a continuation of the identical British Policy back then. Those days the British were trying to save their colony, now they are trying to save their reputation after the ridiculation, and public out-cry they received for Argentina, Cyprus and the rest protectorates.
Arguments relying on British sources are more ridiculous that the ones coming from Turkish Cypriot sources. A simple observation of the article is enough. Where is the British Role? where is the Turkish role? Oh, wait i get it, one day the Greek monster woke up, and thought let's slaughter everybody in the Island.
Ill repeat, its politics you are taking about people, not who took the candy from the 5 year old you saw on the street.
Simply, The British wouldnt let go of the Island, the Greeks were becoming succesfull against them, the Turks who had renounced their rights found a a reason to capitalize and return, and things got ugly. Historical fact supplied from every single outsider.
Revisionism must not be encouraged, especially by the same people who have banned revisionism. Revisionism sets unwanted precedents. The only official Revisionism that has been banned in a number of countries refers to the Holocaust. Lets not apply to others what we do not apply to ourselves, and especially for no reason. Either productive or material.
Regards.
It is true that the British did create problems whereever they go. It is also true that Enosis was probably a response to the way that British treated the Cypriots. However, since they advocated Enosis over independence, the Greek Cypriots instantly took out all of their anger on the poor Turkish Cypriots. TMT WAS ONLY CREATED AS A RESPONSE TO ENOSIS! IT WAS NOT CREATED BY THE BRITISH! It is true that the British might have their own motives for supporting the TRNC, but that does not erase the suffering that the Turkish Cypriots went through. As my Greek Cypriot friend Deanna would say, "Makarios has honey dripping from his mouth and blood all over his hands." Makarios promoted ethnic cleansing and Samptson promoted genocide. None of the Greek propagandists can erase this fact and I don't think most Greek and Greek Cypriot university students deny this. No, only people like Orphic deny such Turkish Cypriot suffering.
Rachel, you continue to celebrate the fact that you live in your own constructed little dream world in which only your opinion matters and true historic events backed up by evidence are a secondary if not totally trivial issue.
Tell us WHAT is this "responce" you speak of..
Do name the exact number of Turkish Cypriot deaths due to EOKA A' activities, if anything to refute the undoubtable fact that Volcan and TMT were both formed to secure British and NOT Turkish Cypriot interests.
And you, Orphic Hymn, spout only that which serves GREEK interests, so you can just step down off of your self-righteous pedestal because you're certainly no better than either Rachel or myself.
I know, seriously. Orphic, why don't you return to your world of pro-Greek propaganda and leave us be?
kiwi..
comparing me to either you or her is at least considered as an insult. I have never once degraded myself to the level you two celebrate, to that of manipulation, distortion and total denial.
So in the future, when you look in the mirror, you can BE SURE that what you see is ONLY a reflection of yourself.
The issue here is that neither of you are capable of comprehending that the problem has THREE parties to blame, all you see is one righteous one and one totally evil one.. you totally ignore the third simply because it suits you.
Unlike you two, I have never once presented "my side" as the innocent one, I have merely indicated that "yours" is equally to blame.
But had you understood that, your contribution to MOTW forum would have NOT been limited to pathetic little insults but you would have indeed indicated through mature posting and legit argumentation that you acknowledge this FACT..
Orphic Hymn, the only fact that I acknowledge is that you are determined to ignore the ligitimate rights of the Turkish Cypriot people in the name of right-wing Greek nationalism. What you think of Rachel and myself is of little importance because we believe in the righteousness of our stance on this issue. I can look at myself in the mirror with a clear conscience. Personally, I doubt if you have one of those.
I've been wondering, Orphic Hymn: just what kind of person are you? You are Greek, and you are highly educated, judging by the quality of your posts. But why do the opinions of myself and Rachel scare you so much? If you think that we are - to use your phrase - 'pathetic' in our defence of the Turkish Cypriots, then you would not be giving us so much attention with your vehemence. That shows a weakness in your character: disproportionate intolerance to opinion.
Rachel Salomon is an individual for whom I have the highest respect for. Not just for her views on the Cyprus issue, but also because she made it clear who she was and where and how she could be contacted (through the TRNC office in Washington). Given the Greek capacity for vindictiveness (which is very well-documented in various texts), she is - in effect - taking a real risk upon herself in doing so.
For my part, I'm curious to know just what you would do if we ever met face-to-face: spit in my face perhaps, ram a knife between my ribs, or just threaten my family and property? Just because I had the effrontery to say that the Turkish Cypriot people have a right to live with dignity and safety. If you are as educated as your posts indicate, then how can you deny the Turkish Cypriot people their desire to live in peace and security?
To you, I'm the sworn enemy of every person with Greek blood in their veins (though I do not - and never will - espouse the anhilation of Greece or South Cyprus) simply because I voiced an opinion that is plainly anathma to you, and your colleagues on the Macedonia web who have made no secret of their anti-Turkish and anti-Jewish feelings. Maybe I should treat all of this attention as an honor - to quote an old motto "Let them hate me so that they fear me". Do you fear me, Orphic Hymn?
This debate on Cyprus will doubtlessly go on and on, and we'll continue to spout propaganda and hurl insults at each other, but until you can convince me that the Turkish Cypriots should not be given their chance to exercise their inalienable rights, we'll continue to do so. It is ceratinly your privilege to hate me and what I stand for, just as it is my privilige to oppose those who seek to deny freedom to others.
OK kiwi, you seem to be in need of explanations which although for the ..what is it..1000th time off topic which you seem to dread to debate, I will answer.
You speak of Turkish Cypriot rights, I would like you to indicate not many but a single time I have implied that I am against them. Let me remind you that I am the individual that has stated that your and Rachel's manipulation and distortion of the island''s history do anything but good for the co-existance of the communities. Your approach is not that of co-existance but through the promotion of hatred through the intentional manipulation, the clear promotion of partition.
I have asked you several times if you have actually read the opinions of the Turkish Cypriots. Of course I do not mean some brainwashed peasant nor that of any propagandist allegedly speaking in their interest. But that of an educated Turkish Cypriot. Had you actually known their opinion, you would have acknowledged what you strive to hide and that is that they KNOW that they were but pawns in the greater geopolitical chess game of the region. They do indeed know that the bloodshed was in vain, they do know that Denktash lied to them and the TMT was nothing more than a terror tool of the UK..
So we return to the many times asked but NEVER responded question.. WHY can't you see what they do ???
Furthermore, I have used the titled prpagandist, I have scorned you both but I have NEVER titled either of you 'pathetic. DO NOT manipulate my words as if it was Cyprus history.
I have titled your argumentation pathetic, the constant exploitation of a specific group's sentiment towards Jews and their persecution, when in lack of arguments. THAT kiwi, either you like it or not is indeed pathetic.
It would be similar to my constant reference to the pogrom of 55', the open prisons of Imvros and Tenedos, Christian persecution, destruction of churches, human rights, Article 301 of the Turkish Constitution .... and whateer else I could think of to evade addressing your or Rachel's arguments.
THAT is what is not accepted and titled pathetic!!!
But its interesting that while you indeed try to begin a serious discussion, a discussion that could even be classified as 'mature'. You again resort to the other form of pathetic argumentation you have adopted. That of generalizations!!!
I have no idea what you've read to consider this "vindictiveness" a well documented fact, but I can equally provide hundreds upon hundreds of texts that would contradict your claims.
As for the face-to-face confrontation.. You again prove that you indeed had no intention to enter any kind of mature debate..
Kindergarden mentalities of bullying or my daddy is bigger than yours, are not worth my time.
The very worst that would happen to you is obtain an education on what you ignore, since in a face-to-face discussion I would never accept your evasions..
Finally I again insist that you indicate a single time that I have stated anything remotely close to the notion of denying the Turkish Cypriots their rights.
If according to you rights mean legitimization of an illegal occupation, genocide through fiascos titled plans and having Turkey monitoring what the Cypriots (I do mean both) will do with their country's resources. Then hell yes I am totally against it. BUT if you mean that Turkish Cypriots and Hellenic Cypriots live in peace without the military ruled goons of the North doing everything in their power to implement Turkey's geopolitical interest in the region, if you mean a future without the presence of the illegal occupation forces. Then that is something you will indeed find me supporting by your side..
That last comment of yours suprised me, Orphic Hymn. You have actually stated that Hellenic Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots could live in peace with each other and that you would support such a goal. If that is what you truly beleive, then I have misjudged you in your sentiments towards the Turkish Cypriot people. WE ACTUALLY HAVE A SHARED IDEAL, but of course, we differ quite markedly on the method, and that's why we quarrel. I beleive it can be acheived only by formalizing the partition of Cyprus, while you believe that it can be done through a unitary state, though on the principle of proportionate rule through the majority-minority demographic percentages rather than the 50%-50% split of the Constitution of 1960.
Despite our spat, you sound that you truly believe that co-existance in a unitary state is possible. Still, I'm yet to be convinced that such a goal can be acheived without a return to the ethnic strife of the 60's and 70's. The issues of military forces, immigration, land and property redresses, and system of government make - in my opinion - a gap too big to redress.
By the way, the phrase "Greeks NEVER make idle threats, or bear perceived insults lightly" is one I truly believe in, and why I think it best that you and I never meet, even though I would show you some New Zealand hospitality. Back in NZ, even worst enemies by drinks for each other in the local pub.
kiwi, you are suprized for one and only reason, you never did pay attention to what had been written..
I've been saying the very same thing from day #1 when the dicussion began in Israelinsider but neither of you saw the damn point.
You simply fail to see that for me, self-proclaimed supporters that know nothing on the issue are of no value to the island's population because they strive to promote disunity..
Show me not many but a single quote in any of your or Rachel's posts/articles that promote the notion of unity and co-existance.
THERE ARE NONE.
All you do, is present the Hellenic Cypriots as 'evil'. Do show me one quote that would indeed indicate that either of you have comprehended what I've stated time and time again.. and that is that "it takes two to tango" and thus there should be no attempt to exempt either side from their part of the blame for the bloody history of the island.
You are also holding Greek Cypriot groups responsible?
Of course the Hellenic Cypriots have done their share of wrongs, if they didn't the saying "two to tango" couldn't be used..
Do indicate a single time I have supported the opposite if you can..
Orphic Hymn, lets get off the name-calling and finger pointing for a while and start debating how best to resolve the situation, please.
I don't believe that Tassos Papadopoulos' policy of 'starving them out' is going to do anything but continue the situation. Heck, it would only work if Turkey abandoned its support for the Turkish Cypriots. All that the isolation policy does is that it further cements distrust. Reconciliation can only take place if the (south) Cyprus government involves the Turkish Cypriot people more pro-actively. Establishing a 'free port' setup with Varosha and Ercan would be a good first move. The TRNC export stamp counterstamped with an EU stamp for their goods would be a face-saving measure for both sides.
Next, allowing Northern Cypriot sports teams to compete in international events. By using the model of Taiwan, a neuralist flag and anthem and a neutral name like Cypriot Turkish Administration could be set up. After all, excluding Turkish Cypriots from sport really is a nasty tactic.
With an increased standard of living and a relaxation of the isolationism in a few key areas, this would engender trust, and at the same time not violating the RoC 'non-recognition policy'. You thoughts on this, please.
Interesting indeed, so you propose that ROC approves of the illegal occupation forces presence and gives the Turkish Cypriots 'freedoms' they obviously do not want and Turkey obviously does not intend to give them.
Why can't you see that the reason for the isolation is, has been and untill Turkey decides to withdraw, will be the illegal occupation ??
Anyway.. I see you simply suggest that ROC gives.. what do they get in return, whats their benefit in justifying the illegal occupation forces.. since that is clearly what you have just proposed ???
You are right in that a Quid Pro Quo would need to be done. I would like to think that the Turkish Forces would start to get scaled back in response to such measures. The more trust that can be built, then the less need for the Turkish military presence. After all, not doing anything - on either side - is not going to change things...
True both sides do need to act.
Since the major obstacle has been indicated to be the illegal occupation forces (I won't even get into the tresspassing issue and illegally sold lands) why don't the Turkish Cypriots that indeed do acknowledge this as a problem do something about it ??
Because once you start, it's like a runaway train or a rogue elephant: It's impossible to stop.
So, because of a short-term solution that I personally find questionable, there are a large number of Anatolian settlers in the North (and I understand that there has been an influx of Greek migration to south Cyprus over the years as well). Simply kicking out every migrant in Cyprus since 1974 is not going to solve the problem. Therefore, it has to be tackled in another way.
People on both sides lost land. I think the best solution is financial compensation. If trade is allowed through the free port system, then a portion of moneys collected could go into a general fund overseen by the EU.
I know that this does not seem ideal (and judging from the topological maps of Cyprus, there is not really all that much arable flat land in the south compared with the north), but short of mass-expulsion of peoples from previously owned land (on both sides) with all of the chaos that would result, what else is there?
I think recognition on the condition that (a) the Turkish military presence is severely scaled back, and (b) the Northern Cypriot Government fund a compensation scheme for the displaced Greek Cypriot families is a viable solution.
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