Israelis don’t have many allies in the Middle East. Essentially, Israel’s only reliable friend in the region is Turkey. Given that, it makes a lot of sense for Israel to seek out other friends that are not too far away geographically. If Israel recognizes the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, not only will Israeli-Turkish relations be strengthened-----Israelis will have another reliable friend not too far away from home.
Israel has always had an interest in Cyprus since the founding of Israel in 1948. However, Israel only got its embassy in Cyprus in 1961 upon the insistence of the Turks and the Turkish Cypriots that there be an Israeli diplomatic presence on the island. This was, of course, before the Turkish Cypriots were ousted from the government in 1963. If the Greek Cypriots did not hijack the Cypriot constitution, there would have been a Cypriot embassy in Israel way before 1994, when the Greek Cypriots decided to finally open up their embassy in Tel Aviv, in accordance with a general shift in Greek policy that supported increasing its ties with Israel to try to minimize the Turkish-Israeli alliance.
For the first 45-years of Israel’s existence, the Greeks and Greek Cypriots seldom had any interaction with Israel, choosing instead to side with Israel’s adversaries in the region. These sentiments were vividly expressed by the Greek Cypriot support for Dr. Vassos Lyssarides, who had served as an advisor to Palestinian, Syrian, Libyan, and other internationally known terrorist organizations.
To the contrary, as early as 1959, Dr. Fazil Kutchuk, former leader of the Turkish Cypriots, told Peretz Leshem, Israel's consul in Nicosia, that “the Turks of Cyprus sought warm relations and close economic ties with Israel.” Unfortunately, the Israelis decided against this out of the vain hope that this would cause them to strengthen their diplomatic ties with the Greeks and Greek Cypriots. Nevertheless, Israel did firmly reject the idea of Enosis (Cyprus unifying with Greece) and generally did support Turkey overall on the Cyprus issue.
Right now, Turkish-Israeli relations are very close. Israel has multiple military agreements with Turkey and free trade agreements. Many Israelis choose Turkey as their number one tourism destination. Turkey was the first Muslim country to recognize Israel in 1949 and has continuously backed Israel on issues of crucial importance. If Israel recognizes the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, definitely the Turkish Cypriots and probably the Turks as well will agree to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of the Jewish people.
Israelis and Turkish Cypriots have fundamental similarities in their way of thinking. Both countries are democracies and have faced immense persecution, thus forcing both peoples to want to create their own state. The Turkish Cypriots and Israelis both understand what it is like to live in a state of constant warfare and are against terrorism. And both peoples yearn for a better future than what currently exists. Given this, Israeli recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus only seems natural.
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As the United Nations Security
Council resolutions only CALLED UPON member nations not to recognize the TRNC, and not ORDERED member nations to do so, Israel would not be in deliberate defiance of the UN by making such a move. It would also gain some support in the Islamic world, which Israel sorely needs.
Thanks to the successful efforts of the Greek Cypriot propaganda machine, and the realities of ‘realpolitik’, the TRNC doesn’t have any formal recognition beyond Turkey, and the Azerbaijani exclave of Nakhivean. Essentially, the TRNC is still ‘out in the cold’, and while the Organization of the Islamic Conference does refer to the TRNC as ‘Cyprus Turkish State’, it should not be forgotten that this definition falls short of recognizing the TRNC as a sovereign and independent nation. Given this current climate in international affairs, it makes a lot of sense for the TRNC to seek out other friends that are in a similar situation. If the TRNC recognizes the sovereignty of the Republic of Somaliland, and the government of the Republic of China on Taiwan (ROC), not only will the TRNC be giving legitimacy to these recognition-starved nations, the TRNC will be showing it’s independence to the world by such a foreign policy.
In the case of Taiwan, the government in Taipei has been steadily losing its diplomatic allies to the government of the Peoples Republic of China. The Southern Cyprus administration has strong ties with the Beijing Government, and as the PRC is a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council, this only makes the case for TRNC recognition harder. Taiwan is now on the verge of losing its last diplomatic foothold in Europe: The Holy See. Taiwan thus needs a European ally, and the TRNC would be able to fit the role. True, the PRC would object strenuously to Turkey, but Ankara would point out that as the TRNC is an independent country, they would not be in a position to force such a change in TRNC policy. This could also have the eventual effect of having the PRC offer recognition for TRNC if the TRNC dropped its recognition of the ROC.
In the case of Somaliland, that nation has had an independent status since 1991. It is the only stable element in the remains of what was the Republic of Somalia. However, the rest of the world has not seen fit to grant Somaliland recognition, even though Somaliland’s case for recognition is strong as it was an independent state briefly in 1960, and that Somaliland is a stable democracy in Africa, a continent long infamous for its instability, wars, and dictatorships. Somaliland – like the TRNC – is a secular Muslim state, and the fact that the TRNC would be helping fellow Muslims would make such a move a popular one amongst the OIC member countries.
Right now, the TRNC is being seen as a subordinate administration to the Turkish Government, and the Turkish Military. The (necessary) presence of Turkish forces on the island of Cyprus has been portrayed by Greece and the Greek Cypriot administration as an occupation force on EU soil. As any sovereign nation has the inalienable right to an independent foreign policy that is in its own national interest, the TRNC should assert this right and start reaching out for allies.
Turkish Cypriots, Taiwanese, and Somalilanders have fundamental similarities in their way of thinking. All of these countries are democracies, secular, and independent and have faced immense persecution on the international front. The Turkish Cypriots, Taiwanese, and Somalilanders both understand what it is like to live in a state of constant threats to their existence and their rights under international conventions, and all are against terrorism, particulary as they are all being terrorized by hostile states, and the self-defeating policies of realpolitik by various nations. Their peoples yearn for a better future than what has been imposed on them by the outside world. Given this, TRNC recognition of the Republic of China government and the Republic of Somaliland only seems natural. Not only that, it is also the right thing to do.
I will pass on your suggestions to the Ambassador on Tuesday, Kiwi. I will also e-mail Ertug. He is personal friends with the Foreign Minister.
Rachel,
I had mentioned something of this idea some time ago to Ambassador Ertug. He had replied that the priority of the TRNC government had changed from actively seeking recognition from other states, in according to President Talat's new policy of reconciliation and concentrating on easing the other embargoes instead, but that he would pass the suggestion along. Maybe Ambassador Akil might have a better opinion of this idea.
I will talk to him on Tuesday. In the meantime, I already e-mailed Ertug about this idea.
Talat has no right to complain
TURKEY’S reaction to talk of oil and gas exploration off the south coast of Cyprus is as predictable as it is preposterous. Over the past month, Ankara has made angry diplomatic representations to Lebanon, with which Cyprus signed an exclusive economic zone agreement, while now Mehmet Ali Talat is issuing barely veiled threats in response to the announcement of tenders for exploration in the region.
Turkey insists the Turkish Cypriots have a right to any reserves found off the coast of Cyprus and that such agreements should be made in co-operation with other countries in the region. Really? One can hardly imagine Ankara consulting with Cyprus or Greece before entering into a bilateral economic agreement with one of its neighbours. As for the rights of Turkish Cypriots, they would undoubtedly exist if the Turkish Cypriots had remained part of the internationally recognised Republic of Cyprus.
It is simply mind-boggling that the Turkish Cypriots should unilaterally declare independence from the Republic – an independence recognised by no one in the world except Turkey – and then expect rights under the very common state that they have so emphatically rejected. As if it isn’t bad enough that part of the island remains under military occupation, the government is expected voluntarily to extend a Green Line into the sea and hand over a proportion of its natural resources to the occupying power.
It’s not even as if Cyprus was planning to drill for oil between the coasts of northern Cyprus and Turkey in what Ankara might claim as ‘TRNC’ territorial waters; no, any possible reserves are far off towards Egypt in the south.
The Turkish Cypriots may feel hard done by having voted ‘yes’ to reunification under the Annan plan so decisively rejected in the south. But the fact is that the Republic of Cyprus remains the only recognised international authority on the island, irrespective of whatever anyone might feel about the government of Tassos Papadopoulos and its responsibility in the current stalemate.
What next? Perhaps we should be consulting the Turkish government about our desire to adopt the euro next year. Perhaps we should be handing over a proportion of our tourism revenues or asking them for their opinion about whether Cypriot banks should be allowed to fall into foreign hands?
Turkey and the Turkish Cypriots cannot have their cake and eat it. Cyprus may not be able to exploit its natural resources to the full because a third of its territory remains under military occupation. But what remains within the control of the island’s legitimate authorities is, as President Papadopoulos quite rightly said last week, none of their business.
I agree with you there (whoever you may be). I don't really know what to say but I most definately see your point and think was a ludacris thing to suggest.
I would hardly call the TRNC a country under mılıtary occupatıon. Turkish Military is there with the consent of the Turkish Cypriot government, which is run entirely by Turkish Cypriots who were born in Cyprus. It is no different than the presence of the Greek military in Southern Cyprus and the presence of the British military on Cyprus. Seriously, if we are going to criticize the presence of one military on Cyprus, we should criticize them all. Frankly, I don't have a problem with either of these three militaries on Cyprus. If Turkish Cypriots want the Turkish military on their sovereign territory, let them stay. If the British want to be there and the Cypriots have no problem with it, let them stay. And if the Greek Cypriots want the Greek military there, let them stay. But to call one militaries presence "occupation" but ignore the other militaries presence is hypocrisy.
FINALLY some intelligence in this rediculous assembly of fools.
anonymous, I thank you for sharing your highly informative post. Unfortunately, brainwashing does not allow some in here to comprehend the weight of your comments, so instead they try to justify what is universally condemned.
again many thanks.
Orphic Hymn,
I - for one - have a rather different opinion on what constitutes a fool on this website. And after reading the macedonia blog, my opinion has only been reinforced.
kiwi, your opinion leaves me totally indifferent.
BUT as I've said time after time, you are more than welcome to come and openly express your opinions on any issue in macedoniaontheweb. If you have hard facts to counter anything presented, by all means please do so. We are strictly interested in discussing history, hence why we have members from all over the world and of all ethnicities, we do NOT centralize on spreading a one-sided opinion based on mallicious propaganda but through discussion and hard facts, come to the truth of it.
So by all means do register once again (for the 6th time according to your claims), but this time do try to comprehend the process of registration and debate your little heart out, present the facts which we allegedly ignore or according to your logic intentionally manipulate.
pa·thet·ic /pəˈθɛtɪk/ Pronunciation[puh-thet-ik] –adjective
1. causing or evoking pity, sympathetic sadness, sorrow, etc.; pitiful; pitiable: a pathetic letter; a pathetic sight.
2. miserably or contemptibly inadequate: In return for our arguments we get a pathetic response from Orphic Hymn.
One thing that Orphic fails to comprehend is that there is a fundemental difference between intellegence and agreeing with him.
Orphic I was a youngster back in the days when your people had all the power and I remember what cowards they were. They were only brave enough to harass women and children. I remember coming back from our village in a truck full of fruit and oranges and being stopped by Greeks. They made my father and the rest line up with their hands up while they emptied everything onto the floor for hours and made them pick it up again because they were looking "for guns". they would stop and harass everyone Turkish. They stopped us another time to search us again and we watched while they stripped my sisters the age of 6 to nothing and touched her all over infront of my mum. You did your best to humiliate us. I dont care about propaganda i know what i saw with my eyes and never will i forget what my people went through in the hands of greeks. I remember how the greeks ran like cowards when Turkish army landed, all they could do is kill women and children. I remember the Turkish soldiers coming down with the paracutes in the heat of summer. we would run to them to give them water because they were dying from heat.
I dont want to live or see greeks in north cyprus ever ever ever ever ever in my life. There is no way i want to unite and reading some of your things make me sick.
The UN means nothing. Its all politics and about religion. All the rubbish you have from UN reports mean nothing. Did you know when the Turkish people were building sand banks, the UN was slicing the bags saying it wasnt right because it lookd like we was getting ready for war but did nothing NOTHING to stop the Greeks building them from CONCRETE on the south? and you want to tell me UN and propaganda? Never in my life do i want greeks in north cyprus, i have never gone to south never and i will never go. If you knew anything you will know what my people went through in the hands of greeks and how much your people hated Turkish peoples. I saw it and i wont ever forget or forgive. Leave my people alone.
anonymous, nice little tale..
I see the hatred has well infected you since you obviously find great pride in writing one ethnicity with caps while the other isn't.. I assume you believe that you manage to belittle them by doing so..
You mention stopping and searching trucks (I won't even get into your ficticious bby incident). BUT you forget the reason they searched, or were you too young or simply not there to remember that the guns they were searching for, did indeed exist.
Were you too young to know about the attacks on the goverment house on the morning of the 25th of Dec. 1963, the very event that lead to the weapons search and intercommunal violence of that night?
Were you too young to remember that the road blocks you speak of literally closed the only road that would lead to the capital ??
I guess you were so I suggest you see Charles Wheeler's report on BBC.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/
hi/dates/stories/august/10/
newsid_3037000/3037898.stm
But then again, in your twisted version of it, BBC is probably as bias as the UN is..
As for your hatred towards the Hellenic Cypriots, you, are but a minority and the Turkish Cypriot vote in favor of the Annan fiasco proves this.
While you may dream that the military ruled pseudo-state will continue to exist, the vast majority don't.
Since when does a government body democratically elected by the voters in Northern Cyprus get classified as a "military-ruled psuedo-state"? As Mehmet Ali Talat is recognized internationally as the elected leader of the Turkish Cypriots, that kind of blows a hole in your description, doesn't it, Orphic Hymn?
kiwi, as noted you know absolutely nothing about the issue, hence your avoidance to address the previous questions when a similar comment was made..
Talat is NOTHING but Turkey's puppet, this is a fact that is well known among the Turkish Cypriots..
If you ever talk to one of them instead the blinded Turks that pose as Turkish Cypriots you'd know this..
PS: STOP posting under the imaginative 'anonymous' profiles you invent in here..
Actually, Orphic Hymn, I can't take credit for the 'anonymous' entries. Sorry to have to disillusion you once again.
I think that Orphic's mockery of the anonymous Turkish Cypriot man is absolutely disgusting. How can you condone sexually harrassing a six-year-old child, Orphic? What kind of a sick person are you? And btw, a recent poll indicates that ever since the Greek Cypriots rejected the UN plan in 2004, Turkish Cypriot public opinion has now changed, against unification. Take a look at this much more recent poll:
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/dunya/5860429.asp?m=1&gid=112&srid=3429&oid=2
I don't speak Turkish, but a Turkish friend named Hasan translated it for me.
"The opinion poll was conducted by KADEM Cyprus Social Research and Educational consulting Centre in 2007.
According to the results of the survey, just the 20% of Turkish Cypriots are in favor of a unification while 65% of the population don`t want a single government any more in Cyprus."
Also, since you obviously take BBC seriously, I suggest that you read this article as well:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6215410.stm
Now try to deny Turkish Cypriot suffering.
Even the EU does not entirely agree with the isolation of the Turkish Cypriots-----it is really only Greece and Greek Southern Cyprus.
http://www.europa-eu-un.org/articles/en/article_3647_en.htm
As you can see, in 2004 EU commited itself to ending Turkish Cypriot isolation. Thus, not following through is a broken promise. But as I said, the only reason that they did not follow through is because of Southern Cyprus and Greece. Namely Southern Cyprus.
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=64569
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4756932.stm
But don't worry, eventually Turkish Cypriot isolation will be eased:
http://www.sarahludfordmep.org.uk/speeches/91.html
After all, they deserve it:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/11/20/edsens_ed3_.php
I think you need to learn more about the Turkish Cypriots and what they want Orphic:
http://www.cafebabel.com/en/article.asp?T=A&Id=1654
Rachel,
Don't you think Israel should firstly recognize the Armenian Genocide ? It is shameful that she has not.
Anonymous, The answer to your question should be this question: Should Secular Turkey own up to something that was the fault of the Ottoman Empire? After all, M. K. Ataturk defeated the Ottoman Rulers in order to set up the modern-day Republic of Turkey.
Turkey stateds that such a pogrom of killing and expulsion was never state policy of the Ottoman Empire, so if these mass killings occured (and I have to admit that there is a lot of evidence backing this claim up), was it instead the fault of zealous local commanders on the ground?
In World War II, Adolf Hitler never signed a written order authorizing the anhilation of the Jewish and Gypsy population of Europe, so that there is a historical precedent for tacit unwritten approval from national leaders. Had the Ottoman Rulers acted similarly, then they are indeed responsible, but blaming Ataturk's Republic for it does not sound right.
All countries have a skeleton in their closets, and Turkey's one seems to be its issue with minorities (something that I don't agree with), but assuming that it is true, it is any reason to deny the Turkish Cypriot people their protection? After all, They saw their people under threat from a similar pogrom initated by the Greeks...
clarification on last post: "Something I don't agree with" means that I don't agree with any policies of maltreatment of ethnic minorities by national governments.
"In 1963 and 1964 he had been in Cyprus as an officer of the National Guard, and one fill day he came to see me, accompanied by Sampson, in order to explain to me secretly a plan that would settle everything. He had bowed to me, he had kissed my hand most respectfully, then: "Beatitude, here's the plan. To attack the Turkish Cypriots suddenly, everywhere on the island. To eliminate them one and all."
--------------
"The first chapter of this tragedy was written by the Greek military junta. Cyprus had been first of all destroyed by the intervention of Greece. Turkey came later, like a second evil. And I'm sorry to say so. I'm sorry because the present Greek government is behaving well toward me, in a frank and honest manner. I've not met Karamanlis or Averoff, but I've known Mavros. And I like Mavros. He's a good man. He's sincere, open, and that's more than enough for me. But the fact remains that Greece would not have regained its freedom if Cyprus hadn't lost its own. The fact remains that Turkey would never have dared intervene if the previous government, the junta, hadn't offered it the pretext. The Turks had been threatening to invade us for such a long time, and yet they'd never done it. They'd never found an excuse." ----These are all Makarios' words. Greek Cypriots did give them a reason Orphic dont try and twist the story to your benefit.
anonymous..
The interview and the events are well known but DO NOT resort to pseudo-state propaganda mentality and intentionally take quotes out of context to present something that isn't there..
The way you present the first quote indicates your attempt to link it to the events of 63-64 when in reality IT IS NOT!!!
Now for Rachel..
So Turkish Cypriots demand partition she says and this is of course their free will and noone persecutes them should they choose to suggest otherwise..
I'm still waiting for a comment on the death threats towards Turkish Cypriot villagers that attempted to assist in the mass grave search, not to neglect Talat's fascist mentality.. (close borders, passports...etc)
But here's a little news flash you obviously won't enjoy, but proves whats going on in the North where military and NOT democracy rules..
http://www.ifex.org/fr/
content/view/full/80892/
Chakmak, President of the Association of Turkish Cypriot Cartoonists, a famous cartoonist who is well known for his struggles for freedom of expression and the reunification of Cyprus and cooperation between Greek and Turkish Cypriots, was attacked on 31 January by nationalists who were upset by his articles and ideas, according to the Union of Cyprus Journalists (UCJ).
...........Afrika has had faced problems in the past for its publication of stories on political topics. Its offices were bombed twice and its editor, Shener Levent, was convicted many times by military courts and spent two months in prison.
-----------
The irony is that some dare call it a democracy...
Maybe next time we'll see someone killed to give an example similar to that of Hrant Dink in Turkey..
Understand that YOU support the following mentality..
"whoever speaks against us must be exterminated like the vermin he is"..
Orphic I wasnt trying to twist anything. I only put that there because of the mention of Nicos Sampson, did this man not become president in Cyprus because of the Junta?
What do you think would of happened to Turkish Cypriots had Turkey not intervened? Come on now how can you deny that. Why on earth did the JUNTA make him president do you think?
Fırst of all, Orphic, that link directed me to a French site on Sri Lanka. I don't see how Sri Lanka is relevant to the issue at hand. Fortunately, I do speak French. However, others here may not, so I would prefer it if you stuck with English speaking sites.
As for TRNC democracy, first of all, the TRNC has a multi-party democratic system with nine different political parties, six of which are left wing and support unification. Right now, the center left is clearly in power in the TRNC, under the Republican Turkish Party. Although they try to appeal to settlers from mainland Turkey, they also are in favor of unification, thus making them center left, versus far left.
I did find an article confirming that you were correct about the Afrika newspaper, which is regretable. However, the same source said the Republic of Cyprus has been making life difficult and denying access to Turkish journalists, so it is not like the Republic of Cyprus is some angel when it comes to this and the TRNC is the villain. Both sides could use improvement regarding freedom of speech for journalists.
http://www.freemedia.at/cms/ipi/freedom_detail.html?country=/KW0001/KW0003/KW0055/
I was against the Hrant Dink murder. Even wrote an article condemning it, although it was not published. I am very much against Article 301, like most Turks are. Clearly, the TRNC is not perfect. However, just because they have made some mistakes does not affect the justness of their cause. They were still the victims of a genocide and are still suffering from international embargoes. Perhaps if Turkish Cypriots were more accepted and did not feel like they needed to be in a survival mode, they would be able to laxen up and be more open to freedom of speech. Note, most societies that feel threatened put limits on freedom of speech.
It is also important to note that according to a 2005 European poll, 55% of Turkish Cypriots are happy with their democratic system and an even larger percentage is happy with their lives. Despite its flaws, the TRNC must be doing something right, if the majority of its citizens are happy with the way that things are being run.
http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb63/eb63_exec_cytcc.pdf
Rachel Salomon said...
"It is also important to note that according to a 2005 European poll, 55% of Turkish Cypriots are happy with their democratic system and an even larger percentage is happy with their lives. Despite its flaws, the TRNC must be doing something right, if the majority of its citizens are happy with the way that things are being run."
In 1955 80% of the people of Cyprus wanted ENOSIS with Greece.
In 1938 40% of the people of the Republic of Hatay wanted ENOSIS with Turkey.
From the July 3, 1939 issue of Time:
“Hatay is a melting pot of Arabs, Kurds, Armenians, Alaouites, Greeks, Circassians and Turks. Of these, the Turks are most numerous, constituting 40% of the population. Taking a leaf from Führer Hitler's book and even improving on his methods, the Turks first asked for (and got) minority rights for their nationals in Hatay, next autonomy for the region, next ‘independence,’ with Turkish and French troops jointly ‘keeping order.’ At one time the late President Kamal Atatürk backed up his demands by massing troops along the Syrian border. At another time a League of Nations plebiscite was to be held in the district, but when most of the non-Turks banded together and it became obvious that the Turks could not win, the obliging French invited the League Commission to leave.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Hatay
I feel to see how Hatay as any thing to do with the subject at hand. Also, the Greek Cypriot desire for Enosis was unethical. Turkish Cypriots like their independence. They don't want to be annexed by Turkey.
Rachel Salomon said...
"Also, the Greek Cypriot desire for Enosis was unethical. Turkish Cypriots like their independence."
The vast majority of the non-Turks of Hatay (Arabs, Kurds, Armenians, Alaouites, Greeks, Circassians) liked their independence too.
Was the annexation of the Republic of Hatay ethical or not ?
anonymous..
OK, my wrong, but the way it was presented, it seemed as if you intentionally posted it to present something totally different to what was actually mentioned..
As for what would have, could have happened.. sorry but I don't like discussing history based on speculations, but only based on hard facts.. and hard facts on what would be their fate is something which we do not have.
Sure some alleged statements in various Turkish (and NOT Turkish Cypriot sites) do exist, but these are in total contrast to other existing interviews which can be found online.. and thus can be questioned for their accuracy.
But if we were to speculate, we'd have to start off totally differently..
What I mean is.. look into who was behind the junta, who supported the actions against Papadopoulos (I do mean Georgios and not Tassos that some totally ignorant on history seem to confuse), who supported Ioannidis...etc and for what reasons..
The issue is far too complicated to be analyzed, especially in this blog, but one thing is for sure, while some got exactly what they wanted (this is food for thought) the island's population,(I do mean both sides) got nothing more than pain and sorrow.
Rachel, use that head I do mean please!!!!
Don't use only the first line, copy/paste both in your browser and BINGO you got the article..
As for what you perceive as a democratic country.. don't make me post yet another definition after those of the words 'propaganda' and 'occupation'.. if you don't understand the language, then please open a dictionary, since 'democracy' is not defined by how many political parties may exist but how rights and policies are practiced.
When you get around to address my question on the reason and the benefit of the threats of closing the borders and by doing so, depriving some 10.000 Turkish Cypriots from a respectfull wage,
when you address the death threats towards the villagers and journalists that attempted to assist in the search for mass graves,
when you address Talat's propaganda against Cypriot passports when he originally was a major supporter of obtaining them,
when you address attacks against those that still promote the idea of unity and co-operation..
when you address all the other issues I've stated that reflect the exact political mentality that can only be compared to a fascist regime, then and only then will you understand the difference between democracy and the pseudo-state.
Ok Orphic, I totally agree with your last few words there and I understand where youre coming from. Peace!
Orphic, the borders have been open since 2002. Peoples have been crossing the borders since that year, both Greek and Turkish Cypriots. I don't know what you mean by closed borders. Turkish Cypriot borders are open without restrictions. It is true that if you fly into the Greek side, you are only allowed to visit the Turkish side for a day and then are forced to be back by 5pm. Denying people freedom of movement is not too democratic either, don't you think, Orphic?
Also, if you want a good example of a dictatorship, look at Sudan, look at Iran, look at Turkmenistan under Turkmenbashi, not at the TRNC. They are not a pseudo-state. They are a country fighting for recognition. TRNC has elections, multiple political parties, multiple views. Is there room for improvement? Yes. But does that make them undemocratic? No. Last time I checked the US State Department website out, both TRNC and Greek Cyprus were defined as democracies, so if you have a problem with that, talk to the State Department, Orphic. Also, I read the human rights report for 2005 for both TRNC and Cyprus. None of your allegations were found in that report. TRNC is a democratic European country, whether you like it or not Orphic.
Sorry Rachel but for a self-proclaimed supporter of the pseudo-state, you know nothing about the island, its people nor their everyday lives.
It was just a couple of months ago, in Nov. that Talat had threatened to close the borders should the Hellenic Cypriots continue the law suits against illegally sold land.
So why don't you finally explain the Turkish Cypriot's benefit from this fascist mentality??
You mention allegedly having read the State Department's report on Cyprus.. While I'd love to see the non-existant reference to the pseudo-state as a 'democracy', I guess you missed the fact that it clearly reads:
"The United States does not recognize the "TRNC," nor does any country other than Turkey."
But its interesting how you choose NOT to address the fascist behaviour of arresting an individual who's crime was to hang a Cypriot flag outside his house!!!
But your attempted refutation of the FACTS which I posted and you ignore, is quite rediculous..
Try to think before you post, if anything to avoid ridicule..I mentioned events that took place during the last six months yet you expected to find reference of them in a report dated 2005 !?!?!
Wait a second, no one was arrested for waving any flag. I heard there were riots by Greek Cypriots in England for people wanting to wave Turkish Cypriot flags, but show me proof that any one was arrested for waving a flag. Here is the report I was talking about:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61643.htm
Yes, I know that no one accept Turkey recognizes them. I saw that in the report. However, it also addressed conditions in both the TRNC and Cyprus. It said:
"The law provides for the right to a fair trial, and an independent judiciary generally enforced this right. The constitution of Cyprus provides for public trials and defendants have the right to be present and to consult with an attorney in a timely manner. An attorney is provided for those who cannot afford one, and defendants are allowed the right to question witnesses against them and present evidence or witnesses on their behalf. The law also guarantees that defendants and their attorneys have access to government-held evidence related to their cases. Defendants enjoy a presumption of innocence and have a right of appeal. The government generally respected these rights in practice." Applies both to TRNC and Cyprus.
"There were no reports of political prisoners."
"Judicially issued arrest warrants were required. Persons may not be detained for more than one day without referral of the case to the courts for extension of the period of detention."
"The law prohibits arbitrary arrest and detention, and the government generally observed these prohibitions."
"The law provides for freedom of speech and of the press, and the government generally respected these rights in practice and did not restrict academic freedom or the Internet.
Opposition newspapers frequently criticized the authorities. Independent newspapers and periodicals proliferated. There were seven major daily newspapers, one weekly, and six major magazines. Several private television and radio stations competed effectively with government‑controlled stations. International broadcasts were available without interference throughout the island, including telecasts from Turkey and Greece.
In May the publisher of Politis, a large circulation newspaper that has been critical of the government, claimed that the government brought criminal charges against him for allegedly evading foreign exchange and corporate taxation laws 11 years ago in an attempt to silence his newspaper. The publisher denied the charges and claimed that he was singled out because of 2004 reporting that suggested the governor of the central bank had abused his position for personal gain.
The government imposed significant restrictions on Turkish (as opposed to Turkish Cypriot) journalists crossing the green line to cover news events in the government-controlled areas.
During the year Turkish Cypriot advertisers repeated claims made by the vice chairman of the Turkish Cypriot Advertisers Association in 2004 that Greek Cypriot newspapers had refused to carry advertisements for businesses located in the area administered by Turkish Cypriots.
In July the Journalists' Union (JU) accused the police of targeting press freedom as a result of their alleged assault on reporters and cameramen covering truck driver strikes. The ombudsman supported this claim and reported that the police displayed a lack of detailed planning during the strike and exhibited a negative disposition toward the public's right to information.
The ombudsman concluded that the arrest of the Cyprus Broadcasting Corporation (CyBC) cameraman was unjustified and was aimed at preventing him from filming clashes between police and the strikers. In September a report by an independent committee appointed by the government concluded that the police had not used excessive force, and that the mass media had portrayed the incident as more serious than it actually was. The JU expressed its disagreement with the committee's findings. The Cyprus Media Complaints Commission issued its own report in September stating that members of the police rapid reaction unit had used excessive force, especially during the arrest of the CyBC cameraman, based on eyewitness accounts and footage filmed by the cameraman."
"The government did not restrict Greek Cypriots from traveling to the area administered by Turkish Cypriots, but generally discouraged them from staying at former Greek Cypriot‑owned properties, gambling in the area administered by Turkish Cypriots, or buying or developing property there. The government prohibited Turkish nationals from crossing from the area administered by Turkish Cypriots to the South."
"In June authorities barred approximately 200 Bulgarians living in the area administered by Turkish Cypriots from crossing to the South to vote in the Bulgarian elections at the Bulgarian Embassy. The government considered them illegal settlers and did not allow them to cross the green line into the government-controlled areas."
From all of this, it seems like both sides of Cyprus are democracies but the island does have some major problems on both sides. But seriously, Orphic, leave the attitude out of your writing. Don't say for someone who such as such, you know nothing. If you do that again, those posts will be deleted as well. I will tolerate zero personal attacks or things that can be tolerated as such. I have virtually no patience left for such behavior.
Rachel you again prove to selectively quote what suits you and by doing so manipulate even the reports you dare give links to.. So DO NOT talk to me about tollerance.
You claim to have allegedly read the report and even dared to post the link yet conveniently claimed that the arrest for hanging a flag is non-existant..
I quote the report from the very link YOU provided:
Under "F" which is titled:
'Arbitrary Interference with Privacy, Family, Home, or Correspondence'
we read:
>>The press reported that in August a Turkish Cypriot man hung a flag of the Republic of Cyprus outside his home to mark the 45th anniversary of the Republic of Cyprus. Police arrived at his house, arrested him, and confiscated the flag, which is banned in the area administered by Turkish Cypriots. The man told newspapers that he planned to sue the police in the ECHR for compensation.<<
Either you like the word or not this is nothing more than fascist mentality, forcive deprivation of the occupied region's population's right to express any notion of co-operation and friendship, can be described with no other term.
Orphic Hymn,
Considering that a state of beligerancy exists between both Cypriot states, its not surprising that the flying of the flag of an enemy dedicated to the destruction of your country is going to attract negative attention. Just how would anyone in the South take a southerner flying the TRNC flag? Give him hugs and kisses?
Orphic, you are the man. Peace. Also, Expatkiwi, get a life.
Yankee Cypriot, get a brain. When you folks from south of the Green Line start treating Turkish Cypriots like human beings, then maybe I'll start taking you seriously.
P.S., I'm enjoying MY life quite well. Hope that sticks in your gullet.
You go, Kiwi. Yah, after all, were not the Greek Cypriots the ones who tried to prevent the Turkish Cypriot flag from being waved at a soccor match? Those weren't even Greek Cypriots waving the flag. Now, imagine what would happen if a Greek Cypriot actually tried to wave the TRNC flag. I bet they would get a lot worse than what this guy got. And seriously, Orphic, I did read the report. I just did not remember reading that. Ok? Chill it with the attitude, Orphic. And I repeat, you express attitude problem ONE MORE TIME, I am erasing the post. Don't say "you have no right." Excuse me, this is my sight. I have every right to say whatever I want and not put up with whatever I don't want to put up with.
Yeah you really did convince me with that excuse..
Admit that you intentionally left it out.. Its obvious that this is the case since you conveniently quoted the line before it and the line after it.. So do find some better excuse next time.
as for the "you have no right" I never did nor would I ever claim that..
IF insults are posted which is NOT the case, then by all means do delete it, but the previous post had nothing insuulting in it, you simply dreaded to address what was posted, hence why I post my full responces in macedoniaontheweb, where freedom of speech and posting of hard facts despite the nightmares they bring to some, are allowed.
Orphic Hymn, if you're right, then how come I can't join your web? I still cannot get the access codes. If that is typical of those who oppose your views, then I guess your definition of 'freedom of expression' means simply the freedom to agree with what the Greek Cypriot Nationalists and hate-mongering bishops of the Greek Orthrodox Church spout.
Turkey has done a number of things in the past that I don't agree with but the one thing I fully support is their secular ideals.
I saw this attempt (USA-Kiwi) just as I had seen the old one under the screen name of "expatkiwi"..
As I told you the process of registration is simple. All you need to do is give an existing email and you'll receive a mail with a confirmation link, you click on the link provided and thats it.
If you do not provide an existing email address, well that isn't my fault.
As for Turkey and the alleged secularity, you indeed have a whole lot to learn.
My e-mail addresses are valid, but the first two I used have never received the confirmation e-mail. Third time lucky?
Interestingly enough, after your attempt, 5 new members managed to register..
So let me have my doubts on the validity of the provided email, since there is no other explanation.
I can confırm that kiwi has a valid e-mail address. Therefore, it must be the Macedonia Forum website.
How on earth can you confirm that he provided a valid email address???
Having one and providing one are two totally different issues.
Orphic Hymn,
Rachel and I have been in e-mail contact with each other.
The third e-mail address succeeded where the others have failed. I'm now able to post (and I have) at the macedoniaontheweb forum.
kiwi, the fact that you post in this blog proves that you do indeed have a valid email address, but that does not prove you submitted one when it was requested during the process of registration.
Either intentionally or due to a simple spelling mistake which does tend to happen, you obviously submitted a false email hence why you never received the confirmation link.
Anyway since the problem has been solved I find no reason to discuss it further.
PS: Since I saw your introduction here's some friendly advice. Don't give yourself that much credit, vanity is a bad characteristic, so do work on it.. ;)
The following is the preamble to the Annan Plan. You know, the one that the Greek Cypriots voted down...
FOUNDATION AGREEMENT
i. Affirming that Cyprus is our common home and recalling that we were co-founders of the Republic established in 1960
ii. Resolved that the tragic events of the past shall never be repeated and renouncing forever the threat or the use of force, or any domination by or of either side
iii. Acknowledging each other's distinct identity and integrity and that our relationship is not one of majority and minority but of political equality
iv. Deciding to renew our partnership on that basis and determined that this new partnership shall ensure a common future in friendship, peace, security and prosperity in an independent and united Cyprus
v. Underlining our commitment to international law and the principles and purposes of the United Nations
vi. Committed to respecting democratic principles, individual human rights and fundamental freedoms, as well as each other's cultural, religious, political, social and linguistic identity
vii. Determined to maintain special ties of friendship with, and to respect the balance between, Greece and Turkey, within a peaceful environment in the Eastern Mediterranean
viii. Looking forward to joining the European Union, and to the day when Turkey does likewise
ix. Welcoming the Comprehensive Settlement freely reached by our democratically elected leaders on all aspects of the Cyprus Problem, and its endorsement by Greece and Turkey, along with the United Kingdom
We, the Greek Cypriots and the Turkish Cypriots, exercising our inherent constitutive power, by our free and democratic, separately expressed common will adopt this Foundation Agreement.
*********************************
Now, what was wrong with this, Orphic Hymn? The prospect of being buddie-wuddies with your Turkish Bretheren?
Sorry kiwi, but you again prove totally ignorant on the issues you dare attempt to discuss.. here's WHY it was rejected, if you'd like we can get into a further analysis of the plan (providing you eventually read it) we can..
THESE are the reasions the Hellenic Cypriots votd NO!!!
The 5th Annan plan states that:
THE TURKISH OCCUPATION FORCES WILL REMAIN PERMANENTLY IN CYPRUS
The 5th Annan plan states that:
ALL 150,000 ILLEGAL TURKISH COLONISTS ARE MADE CYPRUS CITIZENS
The 5th Annan plan states that:
ALL THE REFUGEES WILL BE PREVENTED FROM EVER RETURNING
even in the areas supposedly to be returned
The 5th Annan plan states that:
NO LAND OR PROPERTY WILL EVER BE GIVEN BACK TO ITS LEGAL OWNERS
even in the areas supposedly to be returned
The 5th Annan plan states that:
THE REFUGEES LAND WILL ALL BE CONFISCATED AND GIVEN TO THE ILLEGAL OCCUPIERS
The 5th Annan plan states that:
THE REFUGEES MUST PAY THEMSELVES COMPENSATION
The 5th Annan plan states that:
THE REFUGEES CAN NOT HAVE CHILDREN IN AND LIVE IN THE NORTH
The 5th Annan plan states that:
ALL RIGHTS OF APPEAL TO THE EUROPEAN COURTS ARE FORBIDDEN
The 5th Annan plan states that:
THE REFUGEES WILL NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE IN THE NORTH
The 5th Annan plan states that:
NO FUNCTIONAL DEMOCRACY WILL EXIST
The 5th Annan plan states that:
THE 10% MINORITY WILL OPPRESS THE 90% MAJORITY AND WILL BE GIVEN 50% OF ALL THE POSITIONS IN FEDERAL INSTITUTIONS AND THE BLANKET RIGHT OF VETO
the Turkish occupiers will have the same number of police as the Greek Cypriots and the Greek Cypriot police force will be cut
The 5th Annan plan states that:
FOREIGNERS WILL CONTROL CYPRUS LEGAL AND BANKING SYSTEMS
The 5th Annan plan states that:
THERE WILL BE NO ELECTIONS FOR THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT
The 5th Annan plan states that:
THERE WILL BE NO FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT
THE RESTRICTIONS ARE ALL PERMANENT
The 5th Annan plan states that:
THERE WILL BE NO FREEDOM OF SETTLEMENT
THE RESTRICTIONS ARE ALL PERMANENT
The 5th Annan plan states that:
THERE WILL BE NO FREEDOM TO BUY OR SELL PROPERTY
THE RESTRICTIONS ARE ALL PERMANENT
The 5th Annan plan states that:
THERE WILL BE NO FREEDOM OF ESTABLISHMENT TO DO BUSINESS OR PRACTICE A TRADE
THE RESTRICTIONS ARE ALL PERMANENT
GREEKS AND GREEK CYPRIOTS WILL BE MADE INTO SECOND CLASS CITIZENS WITHIN THE EU
CYPRUS WILL BE LEFT COMPLETELY DEFENCELESS WITHOUT ANY ARMED FORCES TO PROTECT ITSELF OR A CREDIBLE PEACE KEEPING FORCE PUT IN THEIR PLACE
THE UN WILL BE POWERLESS TO STOP THE TURKS CAUSING PROVOCATIONS AND TAKING THE WHOLE OF THE ISLAND
The Annan plan construes to inflict conditions of life on the Greek Cypriots calculated to bring about their physical destruction in whole or in part and is thus in direct and deliberate contravention of Article 2(c) of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide which was ratified in UN General Assembly resolution 260 A (III) of 9 December 1948 and came into force on 12 January 1951.
Under Article 3(b) of the above Convention the act of conspiracy to commit genocide is punishable. The Anann plan conspires to commit genocide.
Under Article 3(c) the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide direct and public incitement to commit genocide is punishable. The referenda proposed by Kofi Annan to endorse his plan incite the public to commit genocide.
Kofi Annan has perpetrated a crime against humanity and must be brought to justice.
http://www.oxi-no.org
----------
To top it all off, had the Annan fiasco been approved there would have been NO complaints by Turkey about the oil issue for the CYPRIOTS would have been deprived under a totally facsist manner any right to exploit the island's natural resources for they would have been handed over to the UK..
Now that you finally have been taught about the promotion of genocide and the direct breach of humanitarian laws and the Geneva Convention, YOU tell me if you finally understood WHAT THE PROBLEM WAS!!!!
Orphic, I seriously doubt that the Annan Plan uses the word occupation and illegal or any of the harsh language that you just listed. I want proof of this, meaning direct quotes from the Annan Plan prooving that every word you uttered is indeed true.
I honestly wonder why I waste my time with you..
Of course the fiasco doesn't use the same terminology the quoted site has used to make its point..
But thats the pathetic level of arguments I've been receiving..
Instead of looking at the issues listed, instead of understanding that the Hellenic Cypriots had totally legit reasons to reject the fiasco which you seem to worship as if it was some kind of a bible, you resort to questioning the choice of terminology..
Now you may run back to school.
Rachel,
You should not even waste your breath with Orphic Hymn. If he's sick of posting on this blog, then he should piss off. I ain't going to miss him.
I agree, Orphic should just leave our site alone, just like we leave his Macedonia Forum alone, which unlike my site, promotes tabloid insults and anti-Semetism.
Leave.. yeah thats what you people want.. no opposition to your BS, hence why HE (since you never had the nerve to even attempt to contradict anything written) ran to the safeguard of ANCA, where history is not discussed and all we find are nationalist trolls that find pride in drawing up maps.
Finally for the 10th time..
Honestly, don't you feel the least ashamed of spreading your little lies and speaking of anti-Isrealism when NEITHER your country NOR people are mentioned even once, but only YOU and YOUR FALLACIES EXPOSED ???
How low do you people get in order to promote your deluted version of history ??
Rachel you have and will continue to be exposed until you finally learn the facts about the issue you dared to utter or eventually STOP the manipulation of Cypriot history.
And you don't manipulate? History is written by the victors, but you have not yet won in Cyprus.
I am sorry, Orphic, but there are anti-Semetic comments on that site:
HellenicPride01-06-2007, 11:58 AM
Great post Orphic what else would you expect from Turkeys allies the Jews.
Reaper01-11-2007, 12:12 PM
i think Turkey has a stronger bond with Israel than greece despiet the odd naval exercise. The average greek has no love for israel, that is obvious if you live in Greece for a week or a life time.
Yah, so now try to deny that there is anti-Semetism on your site. And tabloids are calling people trolls, inferior, etc. instead of attacking arguements.
Personal opinions published in a fora represents the individual that wrote them and not an entire nation.
If I was to take your or kiwi's pathetic attacks against a nation and country you know literally nothing about in your attempt to cover up your ignorance, as a depiction of the entire Jewish or American population's beliefs/mentality.. I can assure you that the results wouldn't be considered a compliment for those you allegedly represent.
Hence why I unlike you NEVER resort to such rediculous generalizations..
I suggest you strive to refute a single word posted instead of exploiting Jewish persecutions to cover up for your ignorance, as I've said time and time again it is indeed pathetic.
Orphic Hymn, you're right in that I've never stepped foot in Greece, but I strongly doubt that I'd be welcome there anyway. I know a fair amount of Greek history - both ancient and modern. I've also known people with Greek connections. A friendly people certainly, but when it comes to politics, I've yet to find a 'moderate'. To a man, those I know have a hard-line against the Turkish Cypriots.
You say that I hate Greeks and Greek Cypriots. That is untrue. However I do hate Greek and Greek Cypriot policy towards Cyprus and that island's Turkish populace.
Also, I do not blindly support Turkey. There are things in its history and current policy that I don't support either - like that '50's pogrom against the Greek minority in Instanbul, and their denial of the Kurdish people's right to self-determination. As I mentioned earlier, self-determination is an inalienable right, and if the New Zealand Maori decided to exercise that right, I would support that as well.
Greece is the cradle of philosophy and culture, but I can't reconcile that with the attitudes prevailing against Turks, Macedonians (Skopje), and Albanians.
I could not have said it better myself, Kiwi. And Orphic, how could I be racist against Greek Cypriots when one of my closest friends is Greek Cypriot? She knows my opinions about Turkey and Cyprus, yet we are still friends. She even invited me to stay with her in Cyprus for a week this summer. I think that I am going to take her up on that offer. Unlike you, she recognizes a Turkish Cypriot genocide, the evilness of Makarios and Nicos Sampson, and is actually Greek Cypriot. Orphic, I don't even know who you are. At least people know what I am, for better or worse.
And there are things that Turkey has done that I did not approve of, such as the Hamas visit to Turkey recently and the statements made by Erdogan about the archeological dig near Al Aqsa. I told my co-workers at the TRNC Representative Office that I think that Erdogan made a major mistake there. They were not offended at all by that criticism and actually, agreed with me that they were mistakes. For unlike you, Orphic, they can tolerate dissent and don't judge people based on their political views. Seriously, Orphic, your views are crazier and more extreme than any actual Greek or Greek Cypriot person in my Cyprus debate group. I think I will leave it to those Greek and Greek Cypriot university students to judge whether my views are racist towards Greeks or not, not you, Orphic. So far, Orphic, although they don't agree with some of my views, they don't take offense to my views at all. There are now almost 100 people in that group, of which 50% are either Greek or Greek Cypriot. For this reason Orphic, I don't take your views as representative of most Greek and Greek Cypriot people.
Besides, I speak to educated Turkish Cypriots almost daily in the TRNC Representative Office and in my debate group. NONE of them share your perspective. Although it is true that some do favor unification, while others favor partition, NOT A SINGLE TURKISH CYPRIOT UNIVERSITY STUDENT IN MY DEBATE GROUP FEELS VICTIMIZED BY TMT AND DANKASH. If any thing, they feel victimized by the GREEKS, GREEK CYPRIOTS, and the INTERNATIONAL ISOLATION.
kiwi..
For some mysterious reason my responce doesn't appear so I'll try to repost a summary.
Firstly I find your constant evasions quite annoying, so let me clarify once and for all that I honestly couldn't care less if you believe Hellas was the cradle of civilization, if you are totally captivated by ancient Hellenic phisophy and thought, mesmerized to such an extent in which you can recite Aristotle, Plato and Aescylus by heart, if you worship the Dodeatheon nor if you've even decided to learn the ancient form of the language because you believe it to be the most perfect form of speech.
You just don't watnt to see that these issues ARE NON-RELATED TO THE TOPIC!!!
In another evasion you throw the names of the Turkish, Albanian and FYROMian ethnicities.. I do have to ask..WTF is your point ???
Rachel, you continue to parrot other's ideas..
You're alleged friendship and thoughts about Turkey's policies are NOT the issue here.. But for the hell of it, while you claim to not support all Turkish actions, you have yet to say a single word against them.
To the contrary, you fully support the illegal occupation forces, you fully support Turkish military goons that have slaughtered innocet civilians, you even resorted to the disgusting level of titling innocent demonstrations against it and those killed in their process as 'hooligans'
I never could understand why in total lack of arguments, why when caugt red-handed to have intentionally manipulated quotes and history, you resort to making reference to pseudo-state ambassadors, friends, discussion groups.. and my personal favorite.. daddy.
Rachel your relations is neither relative to the issue nor do they provide some form of support to the fallacies you've posted.
While it is interesting that all these people that love you and fully support your opinions do exist, not a single one of them has entered the discussion in your favor, not even kiwi's plead for support in ACTA had any result. What you simply fail to see is that noone will strive to support a propagandist that manipulates history, hence why you've been left alone on this.
You also mention Uni. students which ignore TMT reality. Well unlike you, I find this to be no suprize.
You see Uni. student, while it does indeed indicate a level of higher education, does not indicate complete and accurate knowledge of a specific region's history. Hence why you, a Uni. student, have been proven to not only need further education on the topic in question but actually ignore the very basics.
Let me remind you of that rediculous attempt to alienate the Hellenic Cypriots from the island by implying they were imported during British rule,, and totally erasing their presence there since the 2nd Mil. BC.
The difference here Rachel, is that I have never claimed to represent anyone but myself, I'm not the individual that titles myself supporter, nor have I ever stated to have correspondance with pseudo-state ambassadors which approve of my views.
I'm just a simple Joe that found someone (YOU) that manipulates my history and have decided to teach them what they obviously ignore, if this may result to some ammount of ridicule and humiliation for this supporter, well honestly, THAT ISN'T MY PROBLEM.
So until you learn the island's history, untill you actually speak and learn true Turkish Cypriot views and not those of some second generation child that has only seen the island on a map, untill you are able to refute a single word I have stated with actual FACTS and not hearsay nor propaganda sources, untill you truelly comprehend the Turkish Cypriot mentality and problems.... untill then Rachel, you are NOT worthy of calling yourself a supporter.
For you and those like you do far more harm that good.
Excuse me, but first of all, Orphic, I recognize that Greek Cypriots have been on the island for quite some time. However, that number was increased under British rule. You are taking what I said way out of context and making it sound like something that I NEVER said.
Second of all, Buket was born on the island. Gunesh was born and grew up on the island, as did Osman, Hilmi, Ibrahim, and Deanna. All of these people were born and raised in Cyprus, with the exception of Buket, who was born in Cyprus but grew up in the UK. Ibrahim actually was forced out of his home in Paphos by EOKA B and thus moved to Northern Cyprus as a refugee. So with the sole exception of Buket, none of these people did not grow up in Cyprus and Ibrahim was even an eye-witness to many of the atrocities. BTW, these other people don't argue here because I don't ask them, not because they would not. I feel like I have the situation under control, so I don't need them to get accounts and write on here. However, if I do have questions, I usually ask either Gunesh, Ibrahim, Osman, Buket, or Deanna. BTW, although Buket, Hilmi, Osman, and Gunesh all work for the TRNC, Ibrahim and Deanna do not. In fact, Ibrahim describes himself as an eye-witness to Greek Cypriot atrocities against Turkish Cypriots and Deanna describes herself as a Greek Cypriot university student, who was born and raised in Cyprus. She went to college in Canada and is now in grad school in the UK, but she was born and raised in Cyprus and goes back there every single summer. In the mean time, I don't know any thing about your background, Orphic, so I am less inclined to believe you than these other people.
I actually wonder if you put some effort in the whole issue or if fallacies come out naturally.
The quotes are out there..You said:
"This idea was beginning to take root as early as 1879, when the British allowed Greeks to settle on the island in "patriotic communities."
While I questioned what was implied I never got an answer, to the contrary I got a Gibbons quote in an attempt to alienate the Hellenic Cypriots from the island.. Of course your fallacies were trashed once again.
Even if we were to look into your last comment,we'd again see that you totally ignore the island's history.
According to the 1881 British census the population was approx. 140.000 Hellenic Cypriots and 42.000 Turkish Cypriots. These numbers are in clear agreement to the percentage depicted in the 1960's census which again indicate an approx. 80-20% population
As for this Ibrahim.. I wonder how on earth someone that is at least 40 is stuck in Uni.
EOKA B' was formed in 1971 so for him to have been an eye witness and actually understood what was taking place he'd at least have to have been or over the age of 8.
According to very simple math, we find 8+33(since the attacks on Paphos took place on July of 74')we come to the conclusion that our friend Ibrahim,is at least 41..
Here we call them "eternal students" staying in Uni. untill their early 30's living off daddy's 'pocket money'.. but I've never heard of one in his 40's
Indeed quite interesting fellow this Ibrahim
As for me,I've already clarified that I'mjust a simple Joe rubbing historic facts in the face of self-proclaimed supporters that manipulate history
When you're able to contradict a single thing I've said,then and only then may you question me
Ibrahim is not in university. I met him on facebook. He is in the working world and yes he is over 40. He is in my Cyprus Debate group. And I never said that Greek Cypriots were never on the island, only that their number increased under a program under British rule. And btw, I have the right to question you all that I want, for I don't answer questions coming from nobodies. I want to know what your career is, whether or not you are college educated and if so, what was your major and where did you attend school, where is your place of birth, etc. Before you answer those questions, I will not address any thing that you have to say, for I don't waste my time with nobodies, especially with midterms just around the corner.
Oh, and in case you were wondering what people were saying in my Cyprus Debate group, here are some quotes:
Deanna: "we need a reality check in cyprus - we need to get people to realise the true negativity of the past - that is the only way for peace to prevail - the Cypriots are fantastic people today (if i do say so mayself) and they are in no way reflective of their past - the sooner we all right the wrongs of our ancestors, then the sooner we will reach true peace - now if Turkey would right her wrongs then it would be a blessing, but i dont see Turkey ever doing that - but who knows, things might move fwd with a new Cypriot president - cross our fingers ppl!"
Andreas: "by the way, as the youth comes., the influence of the church diminishes, like in europe in general, youth are less religious than their predicessors. Its happening in cyprus, but the society is still very patriarchal and conservative (due to the leaders)"
Deanna: "we are agreed on the Makarios issue - his mouth dripped of honey while his hands dripped of blood - thats the common consensus about him internationally - old gcs still respect him for his dream of a free Cyprus, and for his stuggle to realize that dream, plus he was our religious leader so we owe him some form of respect - but generally, from a secual perspective, he wasn't a good church-going man other than in name."
Deanna: "and with regards to the culture of the 60s, if you speak to the older generation you should be able to understand how ignorant they are in their mentality (i hate to use the word ignorant to describe my grandparents, but it's true)"
Deanna: "i'm not ur typically influenced Cypriot - I didnt go to public school or live in a village - I have spoken to the older generation of both sides as research for a book i'm writing on 'the history of cyprus from it's people's perspective', so you can't accuse me of being subjective in any way - i tell things the way they are (never have i denied anything that has happened in Cyprus history or merely blamed others ignorantly) - i'm the most objective gc you will ever find :P"
Raol: "How well do you know Cypriot culture from the 1960s? You know what you've been told. I just happen to think that claiming that you were poor innocent victims of this down plays the role that Cypriots had in the division of your own island."
Deanna: "so basically the "incident" was not racially motivate, but simple human instincts - any kid around the world would cause a fight after a personal insult like that - the media is merely causing nationalistic propaganda by saying "it was racially motivated" (tc side) or "an attack on religion" (gc side) - so no such racist feelings exist outside of the media"
Deanna: "the attack at that english school was over emphasized on the news - it was nothing but kids fighting - aparently a cross was meant to have been desecrated, or somethink along those lines - gcs are religious people and do not respect religious desecrations such as these - but it was nothing but rivalry nonsense - if our govs. allowed ppl to mix and encouraged mixing then we would see better tolerance of eachother emerge"
Deanna: "gcs didnt know anything other than "belonging" to someone - they wanted to belong to greece in order to preserve their "greekness" - as oposed to being considered turkish (otomans) or british - they maintained their identities thru nationalism - eoka was a nationalistic movement and brought independence in 1960, but then eoka b turned towards complete racial purity - today the reality is difference - there is no connection to enossi with greece either way, despite what the remaining nationalists may think - greece has declared this, and our country is 10 times more economically stable than greece so there really would be no point in enosis anyway - we are educated enough now to make the old constitution work - all we need is positivism by our govs."
Deanna: "yea Rachel, the 1960 constitution would be ideal nowadays i think - the only problem is the land and compensation issue, as well as the Turkey issue of course - the problem Raul identified is correct: that neither side knows (or at least chooses to ignore) the suffering of the other side, and they each see themseves as the most victimised - i suppose it's hard not to do so when you are taught biased history in schools - the majority of the gcs have a family member or friend who lived thru 1974, and those same people are still refugees today, which adds to the whole nationalism thing - it's a sad reality, but true nonethless"
Deanna: "the reality of the situation was that there was indeed a conspiracy to exterminate all tcs in cyprus to preserve a greek race - we cant deny that - but i do not agree with the statement that all gcs wanted such a thing to happen (the left wingers that were killed were killed because they neither wanted enosis nor the murder of the tcs) - they were simple village folk who didnt want to et involved in the racial conflicts - the right wingers were a minority but achieved so much violence as a result of Greek assistance - to label all pre-1974 gcs are "evil" would be an erronous statement"
Deanna: "lol - let's hope it doesnt come to that! I think that a lot of apologies need to be said on both sides - tcs tend to think of eoka as a purely gc movement, but it was over populated and funded by greece more so than by the cypriot government - this stereotype of the gcs needs to be abolished, i have heard countless times "the gcs tried to exterminate us yada yada" but that's so politically incorrect, "eoka tried to exterminate us" would be the correct think to say, many gcs were murdered by eoka as well - to break these stereotypes of the "evil" gc, people need to mix and get to know one another - to expect the anan plan to be popular in 2004, after inadequate open boarders for less than a year, was rediculous i think! - give it time and the proper guidance, and thenext plan (in 10 years time) will prove efficient!"
Deanna: "the whole "traitor" concept is alive in both the north and the south - i suppose someone like myself would be considered a traitor, because i sympathise with all loss of life, be it gc or tc - the problem lies with the oldies, the youth really doesn't care that much about the past, none of us has lived it but everyone hears stories from their parents/grandparents - the problem is that neither side knows the true attrocities the other side suffered, and so no one will openly apologise for the past and set things right again - without acknowledgment of the other's suffering we can't forgive the other side - Cyprus needs to apologise to the tcs for EOKA militancy, and Turkey needs to apologise to Cyprus for the attrocities of Turkish militancy in 1974 - conspiracies should also be cleared up - but who is willing to do this at this present moment in time??"
Gazi: "so what your saying is that s.cyprus is 'cyprus' and n.cyprus is not 'cyprus' lol
and that just because there are some tcs in south, they represent the tcs and that roc therefore represents tcs... in the same way, those gcs in the north arnt really part of 'cyprus' since the north is not 'cyprus’ right? please, do u see how ridiculous this is? I in that instance I was not blaming gcs for division, but occasionally i think gcs need the harsh reality check that-which ever way you look at it- there was a chance to reunite the island after all these years and it was gcs that rejected it. period. you may give your reasons but it doesnt change the fact that i have just mentioned."
Deanna: "personally, when i was in the north in 2003 i had a lot of fun at the beach with my girlfriends -- there was a group of tc guys flirting with us and we had fun flirting back -- my point is, we didnt shun away from our flirtations just because they were tcs -- so why do u guys fear the worst from the youth? -- the youth doesnt care about the past, they are more base -- i think the next 10 to 20 years will show us that intergration is possible and welcome by the youth -- scrap the oldies, give the youth power and see the difference!"
"my point is, once we drop the prejudices and really get to know eachother, then we discover that we are so similar -- we had inside cultural jokes as well -- the cypriot guys like him and so did the girls (he was cute) -- so at the end of the day we all became frineds -- but we need to get to know eachother before we can become friends -- right now we have so many prejudices btw us its unbelievable -- if we can be friends with turk then we can be brothers with the tcs (who are even more similar to us) -- thats why we need mass possitivism and mixing a.s.a.p (to understand who the others are and loose all prejudices) -- i had a fun time at a party with a turkish lady as well, so where there's a will there's a way :)"
Ibrahim: "In very simple terms this is what I feel as a Turkish Cypriot- and have very little claim to make in knowing what the majority Tcs want:
I want to be part of a Cyprus government which is federated and bizonal ( at least at the beginning- further relaxation on the bizonal thing can happen as the two communities mix well). I will always identify my ethnicity as Turkish and my religion as Muslim. I expect the Gcs will always claim to their Greek and orthodox identity. I can imagine a future Cyprus where we all know and understand each others religion and language. At that point I would say it would be possible to identify ourselves as Cypriots. I do not want to be part of Turkey. I do not want to be ruled by Turkish governments in Ankara. I will never sign on to a peace deal where my independence and sovereignty is not clearly protected. Hope this helps ;"
Ibrahim: "looks like we are at a stalemate again. No wonder our politicians had so much difficulty agreeing on a plan. I always thought that they were hard headed and incompetent. Look at us... we are not progressing any more than they have. It seems to me that biggest issues are still around nationalistic pride, trust, and lock of common good experiences or lock of common vision. It almost sounds like we will never get there ;) I would like to stress again that if there is to be a union on the island window of opportunity for it is very small. Permanent partition beyond this window is inevitable. Trying to change it after this break point will certainly reintroduce violence and perhaps war on our beautiful island again."
Ibrahim: "Andreas and Deanna, thank you for clarifying your point of view. I hear and now understand what is a concern to you with lifting the economic isolation of Tcs. I, however, find it unsubstantiated. TCs just like everyone else in the region would prefer to be part of EU over keeping their status quo or to be annexed by Turkey. Lifting the isolation would only signal to them that they are being looked at seriously as equal citizens of Cyprus. I would think that you would gain a lot more popular support from the Tcs than you enjoy today."
Ibrahim: "Deanna, I do apologize if I offended you in any way. Lifting the economic isolation of Tcs does not equal to accepting TRNC as a government. There are so many ways the RoC can do this without international recognition of TRNC. But it is RoC's aim to choke TRNC into submission. Greek government of the South cares very little about how that effects the Tcs in general. RoC has been receiving foreign aid since 1974. How much of that aid trickled down to it's Tc citizens? Again, I apologize if I offended you, but my aim is for you to show me signs of this goodwill from your government that you are talking about. When I was in Cyprus this past summer I met a group of Gc tourist in Kyrinia. I was told by them that they are not even allowed to bring back cheap cigarettes with them back into the South because the Greek police does not allow it. Now this is commerce directly between people. Your current government can not even allow this to happen."
Ibrahim: "I think this is a telling sign that even our most liberal Greek Cypriot friends here, in this form, can not even look at us- the Turkish Cypriots, and see us as equals. You are having the most difficult time to even lift the ambargos and end total isolation of us ( your Cypriots citizens as you claim to see us). Makes me think twice when you say trust us we are now very different, modern, peace loving, human right advocates Greek Cypriots. I am sorry but I do not still feel it. I get some sense of that from Andreas but not from the others who commented in this group so far. Collective punishment of Tcs is looked at an acceptable political tactic. Is this the way of EU or being modern? All members of this group- please comment and let me know what I am missing or failing to see. This is becoming a place that only few people are commenting. Where is everyone else?"
Deanna: "so u are saying that we are punishing tcs by not lifting the isolation and recognising the north? are we not equally being punished by seperation? i am not saying tcs should live in poverty for heaven's sake! i am saying that the only "proper" way to end the isolation is to reunite the island -- that way everyone benefits! i'm sorry if u see this as one sided or hostile, but it's the only way to ensure that all hostility ends!"
Rachel: "I agree with Ibrahim. Lets start out by lifting the isolation of the Turkish Cypriots. Then, we can talk about reunion. By further isolating Turkish Cypriots, only the people who favor partition are strengthened."
Ibrahim: "Personally I would be OK with UN or EU administered trade via the TRNC ports. Compensation for land and property loses should quickly follow to enable Tcs to move ahead with economic development in the North. This will go a long way to convince most Tcs that true partnership with the Gcs is possible."
Ibrahim: "Why not start from lifting the economic isolation of the Tcs then. That would be a goodwill gesture towards TCs from the Greek side without needing to recognize the TRNC government. Perhaps TRNC should start allowing some of the Gcs to return based on availability of land. Keep the borders open.Lift any limitation on trade between the two communities. Establish student exchange programs. Teach Greek and Turkish in all schools. Encourage friendship of the two communities via media. While at it would someone want to start an on-line inter communal dating service ;)
All of these steps combined hopefully would help build shared good experiences between the two community. As someone has suggested; the war is not a shared experience- it is a shared suffering. Let's not even try to use it as a base."
Deanna: "makarios had no army under his control..Grivas had control of the army..and makarios was a sneaky man remember? he never openly told his supporters he planned to exerminate the tcs...many people, even today, do not even know of he Akritas plan...so if they were ignorant of it until violence broke out, then how could they have possibly wanted to kill the tcs? my own grandparents dont even know about the Akritas plan, and many others - but when violence did break out and both sides began their civil war, there were a bunch of innocent gc villagers who were scared shitless and didnt know what to do - my dad remembers this time as one of the scariest times in his life (dad's family is from the south, mum's family is from the north)"
Selda: "those that were against enosis were makarios supporters. makarios hated TCs and encouraged his people 2 hate us too. if our own PRESIDENT spreads such hatred then that explains why he didnt intervene. He had the same views as eoka: remove TCs from the island. the governmnet could have stopped it but they CHOSE not to. big difference hun."
Selda: "Deanna, I understand what ur saying. but look at it form our point of view.. only a few GCs helped TCs during our darkest days. the government and the rest of the GCs were targetting us. becase of this, TCs say "the GCs" and not necessariliy "the EOKA" as we feel that 99% of EOKA ideologies were shared by the majority of GCS. Hence the analogy between ur "hatred" towards Turkey, and ours towards GCs."
Deanna: "no one can expect a "quick" solution to be signed, it was overlly optimistic for the EU to even think it was possible in 2004 after less than a year of open boarders..people need to trust eachother first before "negotiating" anything and being comfortable with their compromises..it makes sense to wait..not all is lost, that is all that we should remind ourselves of at this point in time"
Ibrahim: "Sounds like you are suggesting to forget about trying to draw an agreement between the two communities for now. There is just not enough common ground. Let's just open the borders and let some more time pass. This would work if the isolation on Tcs are lifted."
Selda: "Deanna, GCs said NO to the peace plan. that said it all. if the island becomes permntly divided it will be simply because the GCs dont wanna negotiate (talat is doing more than tassos at the momemnt to unify the island) and the fact that they rejected the peace plan. enough blaming Turkey. look at your own government Deanna, they are the ones that dont want peace. as for the divided island.. u guys see it like the Berlin wall.. we see it like a border seperating two countries (not a division within one country). maybe thats why tassos doesnt wanna negotiate. he sees the whole island as his!"
Deanna: "i just read it, there still might be a surprise reunion at some point, we'll see...i know Cyprus is developing independently of the north right now, and developing faster than anything we can imagine, but it doesnt necessarily rule out all possibilities for reunion in the next 10 years or so...the gcs consider the north as their "lost land" so they will eventually want to reunite the island - but with another kind of plan perhaps..so the article doesnt convince or cornern me at all"
Rachel: "Well, the gap between the two is growing by the day. In 1983, TRNC declared independence. That was already like over twenty years ago. Before that time, they lived for about nine years independent of Greek Cyprus. In another twenty years, a Turkish Cypriot could rightly argue that given that there has not been a united Cyprus for fifty years, how can there ever be a united Cyprus?"
Deanna: "well it was their choice to be independent in the 80s, so they shouldnt complain about this now..u can also argue that they made a clear statement that they didnt want to be part of Cyprus anymore..its a two-sided argument overall"
Deanna: "i agree with u that ppl need to learn their history...but because of 1974 the gc gov. tried to evoke nationalism and promote hate towards our arch-enemy Turkey - unfortunately the world has back this idea as well, which made many gcs believe in it and stopped EVERYONE from looked further back at Cyprus history...i promote education on both sides, that is the only way to STOP such things from ever happening again - but, as i already said, it will never happen again even now because such inhumaine activities would be unthinkable in the context of 2007"
Deanna: "and the pic of makarios is in old people's homes - they see him as a spiritual leader who lead Cyprus to independence - they dont know he formulated the akritas plan and was a sneaky bastard - THAT is why they still see him as a hero, for what he did that lead up to 1960, not what happened after - so again, they are not anti-tc at all"
Selda: "does it not worry u that most GCs have makarios'pic up in their homes? it certainly does worry me and the fact that tassos was the vice-resident of eoka and is now the president of the greek government (who was democratically voted by the majority) adds to TCs fears that GC mentality has not changed since 74."
Ibrahim: "I think Selda and Deanna have something in common: trust issue. And I am sure this is where a resolution should center around. It needs to satisfactorily answer all past, present and future security concerns. These securities need to be built into an agreement. Tc cannot even trust UN let alone to a promise of change of thinking and heart of the new generation. I believe Deanna about the new generation of Greeks being modern and progressive but I can not trust the institutions ( church and government ) who runs the South. They have not really done much in the way of gestures since 30 years ago to make me think otherwise. If someone thinks that they have please list examples here."
Selda: "your words are not enough to make me feel safe, in the same way that I cant convince u that there will never be anotehr invasion.."
Deanna: "yes of course i understand tc fears - its for this very reason that we need mixing and FAST - so tcs and gcs can see there really is NO difference between us - we look exactly the same, u couldnt even tell us apart in a crowd - we only have language, ethnic, and religious differences"
Selda: "Deanna, yes mixing is a good thing but dnt forget that is not enough, simply because people are not living under ONE govenmnt. by night, tcs return to the noirth and gcs retrn 2 the south (i.e. every1 returns "home")"
Selda: "Turkey is very pro- unification, as is the TC governmnt"
Deanna: "trust definately doesnt grow overnight...both sides are afraid of something at this point...thats why i think the current open boarders will give our people a chance to mix and get to know eachother's culture...i think our governments need to work together to promote that - otherwise we can kiss eventual reunion goodbye!"
Here are some quotes from our Cyprus Debates discussion group, in case any one is interested.
Rachel, you fail to see that it actually works both ways.. according to you anonymity = nobody..
I have a totally different view.. a nobody is he/she who seeks recognition through eponymous internet debates while a 'somebody' prefers to remain anonymous for he/she simply has nothing to prove nor gain.
Its actually quite sad to see such evasions.. Hell, even kiwi, despite our differences has understood to whom he's talking to and this actually tells us a whole lot about that 'midterm' crack you just posted.
Anyway, I'll play your game and do you a little favor..
For the hell of it, you may consider me an elementary school grad that has accomplished nothing in his life.. for you I'll be but the street corner's beggar that is teaching you volumes of history for free.
OK. now that we've constructed a convenient little profile for your adversary, a profile that will feed your ego and eventually add to your vanity..
Now that we're done with that, you may now continue by giving me replies to all unanswered issues. (as if my anonymity is the problem here..)
Like lets start with you presenting official info on this invisible programme that ONLY allowed Hellenes to settle on the island.
The following article appeared in Zaman Online:
Those directly involved in the more than 40-year-old conflict in Cyprus, a tiny Mediterranean island divided between the Turkish and Greek Cypriot communities (the latter recognized as a state and a member of the European Union), have been playing a cynical game by wasting time on the final unity of the island.
By those directly involved I mean Turkey, the United States, Britain and Greece as well as the other members of the EU, with the United Nations standing as an umbrella organization seeking a negotiated settlement on Cyprus. But we should bear in mind that the main actors in the game are Britain, a guarantor for the island together with Turkey and Greece as well as the US. Those two countries have always played a crucial role in designing numerous UN plans for Cyprus that have so far failed. The main reason behind the failures of the UN plans has always been the result of making the wrong diagnosis of the Cyprus problem.
To start with, it has become increasingly obvious that the two communities cannot live together anymore under a single state model even if it were based on a federal state as envisaged in the 2004 UN plan that was rejected overwhelmingly by the Greek Cypriots but accepted by the Turkish Cypriot majority.
The latest opinion polls conducted on both sides of the island also show an increased trend, especially on the Turkish side, for partition since the Greek Cypriot side under Tassos Papadopolous cannot stomach the Annan Plan, a resolution plan named after the former UN secretary general, as it envisaged a state model based on the equality of both communities. The Greek side could only agree on a solution based on the superiority of the Greek Cypriots with the Turkish Cypriots having a minority status, an unacceptable condition for the Turks.
Yet, all the actors involved in the Cyprus conflict concentrate on a solution based on the unity of the two communities. But behind closed doors it would not be wrong to say that the same actors have nowadays not been ruling out a negotiated partition of the island, even if the debate has been taking place more on the level of rhetoric.
In the Islamic world in particular, there has been an increased trend toward closer dialogue with the Turkish Cypriots since the inclusion of the terminology of the Turkish Cypriot state in the final declaration of the summit of the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC) in Yemen 2004. This OIC decision has laid the groundwork for the legality of the Turkish Cypriot administration.
Despite a recent claim from a Russian news agency that Arab countries and the US were moving toward recognizing the Turkish Cypriot administration as a state, a Turkish foreign ministry official denied that claim, stating that Turkey did not have any evidence that would confirm the Russian media claims. The same official recalled, however, that recognition of the Turkish Cypriot administration as a state could only be possible if Washington took the lead.
Senior government officials, meanwhile, turned my attention to the East, i.e. OIC countries, and Asia concerning the increased positive reception that Turkish Cypriot officials have been receiving.
For example, a Turkish Cypriot Trade Chamber delegation is currently visiting Seoul in response to an earlier visit by their Korean counterparts while Turkish Cypriot President Mehmet Ali Talat visited Pakistan last year as the official guest of Pervez Musharraf, the Pakistani president.
Turkish diplomatic sources admit that behind the increased receptiveness top Turkish Cypriot officials have been receiving in the East is the current AK Party government’s Islamic credentials making Islamic countries more receptive to Ankara, in addition to the party’s business-oriented mindset. The AK Party government has actively been involved in bringing Arab and Gulf capital to Turkey, in addition to the ongoing Western capital inflows. This in turn further contributes to making the Islamic world listen to Ankara. Thirdly, they say, is the frustration among many, including the OIC states, with the unresolved status of Cyprus, prompting them to look for a breakthrough in the stalemate.
Despite US, as well as German and British, diplomatic moves last year to take positive steps on behalf of the Turkish Cypriots when their top officials hosted Talat in their capitals, they still have been occupying much of their time with unity on the island.
How realistic is this when there is no response from the Greek Cypriot side for a solution based on the equal status both communities should enjoy?
As time passes, the idea of a partition of the island has been gaining more validity -- in particular with the Turkish Cypriots, still going through the shock of the 2004 referendum when they enthusiastically said “yes” for a solution under a federal state model.
Since then, the EU has been taken hostage by both the Greek Cypriot and the Greek veto on anything related to Turkey and the Turkish Cypriots. Turkish accession talks have already entered a stagnation period, mainly on the Cyprus issue.
Despite insistence on putting efforts on plans for the unity of the island, in the coming years we may be hearing increased voices in public for a negotiated partition process as any attempt to unite the island is becoming outdated. We can’t change the natural flow of the river, can we?
If the above is true, then Greek Cyprus is going to lose their support rather abruptly. It's akin to a safety valve on a steam engine being tied down. So, Greek Cyprus may need to take the initiative and 'ease the pressure' before someone does it for them. Orphic Hymn, how does the above article jag with your thoughts on the overall political situation?
Dean
(auto37088@hushmail.com)
kiwi.. here are my 2 cents
While she starts out quite correctly by pointing the finger towards all parties including Britain and mentioning "wrong diagnosis of the Cyprus problem" she totally lost it with her interpretation of the Annan fiasco.
As I'm sure you now know (see the post related to the reasons of rejection) anyone that blindly supports the Annan fiasco and attempts to blame the Hellenic Cypriot side for its rejection without looking into their arguments at the very least indecates poor knowledge of it (to avoid using a different phrase)..
But honestly can't you see the one sided approach in this article through her accusations against Cyprus and Hellas for the freeze in the accession talks, not to mention the rediculous use of the word "hostage" ?
If there is someone to blame that Turkey's military goons and that rediculous nationalism which prevents them from recognizing a full member of the organization they want to be included in.
Hell, all they had to do was recognize Cyprus and that would have been the end of the whole issue and would have given way for a much more fruitfull future for all Turkey.
The one sided approach is further celebrated in the reference to Hellas, when the entire EU knows that the current government has done more than simply support Turkey.
A support that has been anything but judged lightly due to Turkey's stance in bicommunal relations (see Aegean issue, claims on islands..etc)
As for the ease.. its been said time and time again. If the Turkish Cypriots really feel isolated, then all they need to do is oppose to the true reason of isolation and that is the ILLEGAL OCCUPATION FORCES.
As long as they continue to support the presence of these forces, I honestly see no reason to lift the isolation.
You do have to prove you comprehend the laws of the free world prior to demanding to be accepted by it as an equal.
Orphic Hymn,
My Turkish Cypriot contacts do not refer to the Turkish military presence as 'goons', but as 'protectors'. They assure me that there is no 'police state mentality' on the streets of North Lefkosa. I can see their logic quite clearly. And while the Annan plan would have left some Turkish troops on the island, it would have been down to a matched number on the Greek side. You know, I had heard a phrase in a STAR TREK episode (of all places) that said "The art of diplomacy is ensuring that both sides are equally dis-satisfied with the outcome". True, the Greek side would have had to make painful concessions, but the Turkish Cypriots would have had to as well. For its faults, the Annan plan was seen as a good start to settling the problem. So, with the rejection of it by the Greek side, it looks like the Greek Cypriots voted for the partition. It really looked to me like the Greek Cypriots shot themselves in the foot on this one. Now, the Turkish Cypriots who voted for the plan feel betrayed, and I really cannot blame them. Cie La Vie.
Orphic, according to Michael Stephen's book, "The Cyprus Question," published in London in April 1997, page 5:
"In 1897 the British began to allow Greeks to settle in Cyprus, and patriotic communities were set up in Greece to encourage the emigration of Greeks to Cyprus. On 10th January 1981 the High Commissionar informed the Colonial Secretary that there were about 600 Hellenic subjects on the island. Greece then began to send teachers, lawyers, doctors, and priests to organize the Greek community in Cyprus in favor of annexing the island to Greece. On 17th April 1895 the British Mandate in Nicosia wrote that Greek schoolchildren had been organized to march through the Turkish quarter singing songs about the slaughter of the hated Muslims. This kind of demonstration was still happening in 1996. On 4th August 1990 the High Commissionar informed the Colonial Secretary that the whole Greek school system on the island was being used as an organization ofr Hellenic propaganda. This is still true in 1997."
So you see, Orphic, I did not make this stuff up. I was summarizing what I read in Stephen's book, which I found in the TRNC Representative Office library.
Also, when you list a bunch of questions, I usually get overwhelmed and end up ignoring most if not all of it. I am a university student and have midterms and papers to worry about, in addition to three clubs plus the internship. If you want all of your questions to be answered, then I suggest that you ask one every couple of days. That way, you can get your questions answered. Otherwise, if I feel like I am being burdened with a barrage of questions, I will just dismiss them as not worth my time.
kiwi.
Sorry but I fail to see it on an eye to eye basis with you.
You see, while you mention the Turkish Cypriots making concessions you conveniently fail to note a single one.. This is actually the very same attitude the pseudo-state propaganda machine has been flooding the Turkish Cypriots with.. an allegedly acceptable plan that proposed concessions from both sides and was rejected by the 'evil' Hellenic Cypriots that cared for nothing more than themselves.
Well sorry but as already indicated, Genocide and breach of humanitarian laws are by no means considered misdemeanour.
I guess that this is the reason you never responded to my question if you'd unstersttod the problem.
By honestly admitting you had you'd have simply justified their rejection.
Rachel, you continue to use Gibbon's piece of trash as if it was some sacred book even though I've already proven to you that its propaganda of the worst kind.
IF and I do stress IF the British did in fact allow populations from Hellas to reside on the island then how do you propose to explain the fact that the population percentage between the two communities had remained the same ??
Simple logic says that if the British had indeed favored the Hellenic Cypriots in this manner we'd see some form of alteration in demographics, but to your dispair and to once again prove that Gibbons is but a manipulative propagandist, we see that all official accounts (see some from a very long list):
F. W. Barry, "Report on the Census of Cyprus " (London, 1884)
"Mediating in Cyprus: the Cypriot communities and the United Nations"
by Oliver P. Richmond page 82
"Cyprus Under British Rule"
by Sir Charles William James, page 109
"Annual Report on Cyprus"
by the Colonial Office of Great Britain (1948) page 15
"Autonomy and Ethnicity: Negotiating Competing Claims in Multi-ethnic States" by Yash P. Ghai. page 220
All indicate the gradual development of population which outrules the fallacious claim of importation which EVEN IF we were to accept according to your source is limited to the number of 600 subjects (which you most probably erroneously dated to 1981, which is when the British rule was well over).
Depite you error which does little to prove the evident about this source.. we find reference to an unknown Mandate who Gibbons decides NOT to name nor provide any form of documentation to support this claim, but to top it all off, attempts to relate this imaginative event to that of 1996 where Turkish nationalism had its greatest celebration..
But besides questioning your choice of source, one must question your actual knowledge on the issue..
Do inform us Rachel, what on earth was the role of a "Colonial Secretary" in 1990 when the whole department had been literally abolished in 1968 through its merging with those of India and Foreign office and since known as the "Foreign & Commonwealth Office"??
Honestly don't you ever question the trash you find in the pseudo-state's so-called rep. office ??
I strongly suggest that you do in the future.
If we were to continue with YOUR interpretation of Gibbon's trash and look into the "patriotic communities" which YOU mention (since this is not evident in the quote you provided).. We'd come accross Christopher Hitchens, who in his highly respected "Hostage to History" p. 47 we read the following:
" The island had been aptly described as 'an ethnographical fruit cake in which the Greek and Turkish currants were mixed up in every town and village and almost in every street'. In spite of political clashes over the future of Cyprus, the Cypriots never had to endure the bitter, venomous, protracted hostility that was the experience of religious and national struggle in Crete and other islands warring on the Ottomans. Even during the First World War. with Britain and Greece on one side and Turkey on the other, there was no analogous hostility between Greek and Turkish Cypriots. It was only when Turks put on British uniforms to oppose a popular movement that they were shot at by Greeks. And even after that, it took some time before people resorted to the final obscenity of killing people just because they were Greek or Turkish."
So your interpretation of communities is proven to be a fallacy through this little quote that mentions :
WERE MIXED UP IN EVERY TOWN AND VILLAGE AND ALMOST IN EVERY STREET.
OK, now that we're done with Gibbons lets see you address some of the other issues.
Orphic, that was not Gibbons, but Stephen, a British Parliamentarian. If you actually read my comment, you would have known that. Besides, since when is Mr. Nobody's word considered to be the Bible for Cyprus History while a well-known British journalists whose credentials are known is viewed as propaganda? Who are you to decide which sources are credible and which ones are not? Of course, every source will have their biases, but I am sorry, you just can't say that I don't answer your questions when I give you the source that I got it from, down to the copy right date, name of book, author, and page number. Just because you don't like my sources does not mean that these sources do not exist. It does not mean that they are not credible. This is what irretates me about you, Orphic. You claim that I don't answer your questions, when I give you every bit of info to back up where I got it for the articles that I wrote, but then you dismiss it as propaganda. Well, NOW YOU CAN'T SAY THAT I DON'T ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS! Just because you don't like my sources does not mean that I ignore your questions. From now on, I don't want to hear any complaining about me not answering your questions.
That was a typo. My bad, it was in the 1891 and 1890. But still, my point is valid. It is a direct quote.
OK, time for another history lesson to those that simply prove incapable of comprehending the simplest terms in english..
Firstly Rachel "official info" implies that you'd present as a source someone that actually quotes, presents or indicates that he/she has indeed read the account in question and the account is mentioned with a NAME of the author, date and recipient. Making claims by using the terms mandate, high commisionar..etc simply indicate inability to provide these crucial facts which would indeed indicate knowledge if not possesion of the document in question.
But lets centralize on this event for a moment..
The first question as already noted is WHO wrote the alleged report, was it Spencer, Newham, Clark?? WHO was the recipient.. was it Holland, Bruce, Chamberlain ???
What was the reason for this demonstration and why does he STRICTLY present school children, as he did when MANIPULATING the demonstration of Nov. 8th 1995 related to the illegal abduction of the national guardsman???
Why does he manipulate the events and intentionally conceal the FACT that while the demonstration did indeed take place (also on Christmas, Orthodox Sunday and March 25th) it was NOT composed by school children but by the ENTIRE Cypriot community which was complaining about poverty, demanding their communal rights and the abolision of the tax tribune which they continued to pay to the Ottomans ??
(Rebecca Bryant "Culture of nationalism in Cyprus" p.93)
Unfortunately for you and your cause, Stephens, an already proven propagandist and manipulator of Cypriot history, has lost all credibility..
As proof, I direct you to the proper narration of the events of the 90's.. or even to those of the 60's which have already been presented in their TRUE versions and fully backed up with source citations.
You present Stephens making these outrageous claims of Hellenes (either mainland or islanders) populating Cyprus in an attempt to indicate alteration in demographics.
Beside the FACT that no scholar supports his claims as neither do the well recoded island's population cesus support it (cited above).
He like you, totally IGNORE that the movements that did indeed did take place were during WW2 and German occupation of Hellas [some 8.000 islanders) and not due to some British programme in the late 1800's nor early 1900's. (same sources used above)
But its far easier to manipulate than to state accurate facts isn't it ??
You go on in this ill attempt of justifying the unjustifiable, by claiming that all historic sources have their biases..
Well maybe in Maryland thats how they teach you history, but in the real world we comprehend that history is NOT the product of bias nor what some payrole dictates. History is based on extensive research with the ONLY ojective being the documentation of the TRUTH.
If you want to talk revisionism.. by all means do so, but under NO circumstance is this titled history.. hence why its properly titled as propaganda.
You go on mentioning that my not liking a source doesn't indicate that it is not credible..
Now, my dear little Uni. student you may learn the meaning of credible.
credible = "offering reasonable grounds for being believed"
So.. HAS Stephens provided us with these 'reasonable grounds' to be believed ??
Obviously your own reference to biases and my constant indication of his manipulation of the historic events and the intentional ill interpretation of them, allows us to come to the exact opposite conclusion..
By no means have neither Stephens nor Gibbons provided us with "reasonable grounds" to be believed, but their constant fallacies have given us IRREFUTALBE GROUNDS to title their work as propaganda and place it where it properly belongs.. and that my dear Rachel, is in a DUMPSTER.
Finally irritating or not, I honestly don't care.. the questions are not limited to sources but to your insistance of not accepting that you've been promoting a fallacious version of history.
For example, just above, I contradicted the population movements by citing NOT one but FOUR well respected sources..two of which are OFFICIAL BRITISH DOCUMENTS.. and not some bias (according to YOUR OWN words) politician, yet you audaciously avoid to accept the fact that you've presented a FALLACY but instead try to justify it, by correcting the name I used and petty provocations with the use of the term 'nobody'..
Sorry to rub it in your face, but this elementary school grad, this unemployed street beggar, this nobody.. once again trashed your every argument and taught the only by title, student of an institute of higher education.. volumes of history.
A very nice day to ya, .. oh, and my regards to the pseudo-state office.
I prefer to use the term "Embassy-Designate of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus to the United States of America", myself.
Nice to see you only have one objection to my post..
Now that is indeed positive.
I went to a lecture the other nıght and the Ambassador from Turkey also mentioned my similar point, which btw is a direct quote and I gave the date of publication as well as the title of the document. That you chose to ignore that is your problem. His document was also published by the British Northern Cyprus Parliamentary Group in April 1997. Title again, "The Cyprus Question." Stephens was addressing the Colonial Period in this document. He also quotes a couple documents, CO 67/18 and CO/67/124/26615. His assertations did not come out of nowhere on that issue.
And now for direct quotes for what happened in the 1990's. The exact same source, Stephens, on page 37 of his book, quoted the Guardian, 18th November 1989, "In coordinated demonstrations hundreds of students broke through UN barricades after stoning peace-keeping troops, some of whom were threatened with iron bars. In a dangerous new development several petrol bombs were thrown at the UN force. According to intelligence reports members of the Greek Cypriot National Guard in civillian clothes have been seen participating."
Stephens on page 38 says, "On 8th November 1995 hundreds of school children were given permission by Greek Cypriot officials to be absent from school. They participated in a violent riot under the guidance of teachers, in which Greek Cypriots seized a UN observation post and hoisted a Greek flag in the buffer zone."
On the exact same page, Stephens said, "On 11th August 1996 several thousand young people [...] were encouraged to break into the UN buffer zone and confront the Turkish Cypriots on their border." In response to this, on page 39 of the Stephens book, Greek Star TV is quoted as stating that Archbishop Chyrisostomos said, "The time has come to launch a full-scale struggle against the Turks-----it does not matter how much bloodshed there is or how many victims there are."
I am sorry, Orphic, but my accusations did not come out of nowhere. They are coming from TRNC Representative Office, they are coming from Turkish Embassy, ATAA, Turkses, Turkish Daily News, Cyprus Observer, Stephens, Gibbons, Denkash, Turkish Cypriot Human Rights Committee, and more. These people have quoted numerous other sources as well. If they don't agree with you,. then that is just tough luck for you, Orphic. You can't say now that these accusations came out of nowhere, when I give you the source and the direct page number where you can find it on.
Oh, and in the book by Pierre Oberling called "The Road to Bellapais: The Turkish Cypriot Exodus to Northern Cyprus," page 16, he quotes the British Inspector of Schools in Cyprus of stating in 1901:
"On examining the schools I find that the only history that is taught is modern Greek history."
On page 17, Oberling mentions the very same patriotic communities that Stephen mentioned: "Sir George Hill writes that when the British occupied Cyprus patriotic communities were set up in Greece to encourage emigration of Greeks to Cyprus for the promotion of the cause of union. In 1898, the Patriotic Cypriotic League was founded in Athens by a certain George Phrankoudes 'with the object of effecting in Cyprus the same revolution as had taken place in Crete.' In a 1902 report to Colonial Secretary Sir WF Haynes-Smith, the British High Commissioner to Cyprus asserted that the movement for enosis 'is engineered from abroad by past masters in the art of intrigue, who have established a very complete organization of so-called 'patriotic clubs' through out the island, and who have command of the money.'"
Rachel,
I really hate to be the one saying this, but Orphic Hymn is not going to be impressed one jot about the sources you have quoted. Still, this was an execllent piece of research that you did.
Dean.
Sorry, Orphic, but I am sick of you. There is no point trying to be a mule with facts. You will NEVER convince me just like I will NEVER convince you. Lets just leave on that note. From now on, ALL OF YOUR FUTURE QUOTES WILL BE ERASED! Save your bullshit for Macedonia Forum. On this site, we are all about promoting the Turkish Cypriots.
All the best in life and goodbye,
Rachel Salomon
Kiwi, you are right. I was not happen with his reply. You want to know something? We stay away from his Macedonia Forum for it gives us indegestion. It is about time that he gave us the same curtosy. It has been already two months since my articles were published in Israel Insider. Time for him to move on. From now on, all of his future posts will be deleted. At this point, Orphic Hymn is nothing more than unwanted spam. From now on, we are going to treat his posts as such. If you want to continue to post here, Kiwi, or any of your friends, you are welcome. However, I am going to save debating for Cyprus Debates on facebook. And Orphic, if you try to follow me there, you will be banned upon arrival, so don't even waste your time trying. I save my energy for young Greek Cypriots who are not set in their bigotted ways, not old farts like Orphic who will NEVER change the racist way that they think about Turkish Cypriots.
Thats it.. delete every post that proves that you're simply ignorant on the issue you dared to debate..
Noone expected anything different from the likes of you..
As for following you..
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
YOu really do have a vanity issue to deal with.
I don't know what you said to her, Orphic Hymn, but you must really pushed her. Not the sort of behaviour I would expect from a gentleman.
I know, seriously Kiwi, he will not be missed. I am done with Orphic, forever!
I suppose. Even though his views on Cyprus are diametically opposite to what you and I believe, he lost the moral high ground by his attacks on your integrity and intelligence. I tries to bridge the gap by finding common points of agreement between him and I, but evidentally, it did not do any good. Orphic Hymn is free to continue his communications with me through my e-mail address of auto37088@hushmail.com, but given his apparent ungentlemanly attitude, I'm going to be somewhat stand-offish with him from here on out.
kiwi,
You obviously didn't read the post hence why you wrongly jump to the conclusion that some form of 'ungentlemanly' comment was posted.
NOTHING remotely close was, its just that Rachel dreads seeing her sources torn apart, so she decides to delete them.
Have the quotes from Stephens been proven to be nothing more than a malicious distortion of the events?
Does the 'Pierre Oberling' quote support his claims of British allowing population movements ?
That was what was critisized, but some prefer to delete the truth since they dread acknowledging it.
PS: your account in MOTW is still active, so I find no reason sending you emails, if you're interested you can always post a comment.
Orphic Hymn,
After reading your colleagues' comments regarding Rachel, I will no longer be writing on the Macedonia web. I may end up saying something I might regret in future. Some of those comments were really below the belt.
I actually enjoy comminicating with you, but I have to reiterate that I still support Northern Cyprus, and efforts to remove the outside world's isolation in Northern Cyprus' sport, travel, and trade. Recognition (much as I hate to say this) probably will not happen, but I will settle for no less than the 'Taiwanization' of Northern Cyprus because I beleive that it is (a) the right thing to do and (b) because there is no genuine desire - on either side - for reconciliation. For this stance alone, I stand condemned in the eyes of you and your colleagues on the Macedonia blog, and I have no desire to have to read and respond to similar slurs on my character.
I stand with Rachel, and I stand with those who support Northern Cyprus. That is the bottom line.
By the way, if you are loathe to communicate with me through the hushmail.com e-mail address because it would reveal your home e-mail adress, you can always get a free e-mail address from hushmail as well. I chose it because of security and anonimity.
Sorry kiwi, but I do not want to have a say on other people's opinions, they express the individual that posted them and nothing more.. hence why I have never claimed that I represent anyone but myself just as I have never made generalizations related to your nor Rachels posts.
But you can not tell me that anyone posted anything remotely close to an insult due to your thesis on the Cyprus issue. Your own topic titled "arch-enemy" proves this to be a fact.
Whatever form of attack did indeed appear, came AFTER your puke and anti-Semite arguments and that post in ACTA.. all of which were totally out of line.
As for anonymity, yuo've misunderstood. I have no issues with the possibility of my identity or 'home address' being revealed. My desire is quite simple and that is.. that whatever is posted, is in the open so that everyone can see the exact form of maliciously distorted history the 'supporters' have been taught.
You and Rachel seem unable to understand that I have nothing against you but against your mentors and how they choose to promote their cause.. and that is whats being revealed here..
Orphic Hymn,
Yes, I have stepped out of line with various comments, but they were responses to what I have read. Kind of like the confrontational style of Tassos Papadopoulos.....?
Dean.
Rachel,
FYI, three days before the Annan Plan referendum in 2004, I wrote a letter to President Denktas, in which I quoted a statement by Orange Free State President Martinus Theunis Steyn. Steyn made the statement on the eve of the Boer War (October 1899). The statement read: "I would rather lose the independence of the Free State with honor than retain it with dishonor". It was intended to mean that it was better to go down fighting than to give in to outside pressure, but he erroneously took it as my endorsing the Annan plan. It took a couple of extra letters explaining my rationale before he realized what I was trying to say. I have been impressed with Rauf Denktas, both for the solidity of his views, and that he took the time to reply to all of my letters, making for an interesting correspondence relationship. He even sent me an autographed picture of himself which I keep in a frame in my den at home. Interestingly enough, President Talat has never replied to my communications. People think of Denktas as obstructionist and combative, but when I look at Tassos Papadopoulos, Denktas is actally quite moderate in comparison. Papadopoulos is really shooting himself in the foot with his intransigence, and that can only benefit the TRNC. I only hope that President Talat does not concede too much though with his EU and UN dealings as a result of their disdain with Papadopoulos.
I do feel you, Kiwi, however unfortunately I think that Talat is more likely to be successful than Denkash, even though I really like the views of Denkash. At the present moment, there is more support for ending the isolation than TRNC recognition.
Well, the 'Taiwanization' of TRNC for international purposes is still a step in the right direction.
I could not agree more with you. BTW, kiwi, can you post your article? I looked on the Cyprus Observor and could not find it. Thanks and look forward to reading it.
http://www.observercyprus.com/observer/NewsDetails.aspx?id=1202
Arab world is ready to recognize Northern Cyprus
As a competent source in Mideast political establishment told REGNUM, Arab countries in the Middle East are ready to recognize independence of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus as early as late March. According to the source, a possibility of recognizing legitimacy of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus by the United States is being considered by the US State Department and scheduled for the second quarter of 2007.
Recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is supposed to be a symmetrical answer to Russia’s activity in making legitimate unrecognized countries in the post-Soviet territory, the source believes.
Permanent news address: www.regnum.ru/english/790400.html
12:54 03/02/2007
That would be wonderful if they did recognize TRNC. My latest thing is that I am campaigning facebook for TRNC to be recognized as a country option, just like Palestine was. After all, you can not recognize some of them without recognizing all of them.
As much as I want to stay out of this, one can't but wonder how on earth are Palestine and the pseudo-state compared, especially when the first has UN resolutions to back it up while the second is condemned by them ???
Sorry, but the Palestinians have just about as much backing themselves up under international law as the TRNC does. However, one gets support and the other does not. How is this fair? That is where I am coming from.
'Fair' doesn't enter into this, unfortunately. I've been getting the same grief on Wikimapia by some dude who goes by the name of "UNFanatic". This is a person who takes the UN-line to the max. Just like Orphic Hymn is your nemesis, UNFanatic is mine.
Just as much backing???
Do present not many but a single resolution that could be compared to this one and by doing so, support your audacious claim..
http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/0/
162094fcbe8245d30525665e00536281?
OpenDocument
kiwi
Are you talking about actanews and your attempts to rename all cities and villages in the South with Turkish names ??
I'm taking about countering biases and placing flags on the sites to indicate which side has juristiction in which area. I've even tried compromising on the wording, but UNFanatic is living up to his name.
Turkey: Sign reads ‘Israeli murderers keep out’
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/
0,7340,L-3291342,00.html
Antisemitism in the Turkish Media
part 1:
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?
P...tism&ID=SP90005
part 2:
http://memri.org/bin/
articles.cgi?Page=
archives&Area=sd&ID=SP90405
part 3:
http://memri.org/bin/articles.
cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=
SP91605
ENJOY...
I'm waiting for you to explain this article away, Orphic Hymn....
-----------------------------------
Human rights in spotlight
By Jean Christou
(archive article - Friday, March 23, 2007)
Ban Ki-Moon highlights UN concerns over unpunished violations
UN SECRETARY-general Ban Ki-Moon is concerned over the human rights situation on the island, citing a number of incidents involving Turkish Cypriots that show the Cyprus government in a bad light.
The Foreign Ministry is furious over the six-page ‘note’ by the Secretary-general relating to a report on Cyprus by the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights.
On Wednesday the Ministry called all refugee organisations, and representatives of missing persons for a meeting to coordinate a protest response to the UN.
In his note dated March 9, Ban said human rights violations were going unpunished in Cyprus due to the division of the island and the lack of cooperation between the two sides.
“A number of human rights violations, some serious, remain unpunished… in particular with regard to the law enforcement agencies, as well as to ineffective investigations by the authorities,” Ban’s note said. “There is a pressing need to deal with this issue.”
He referred to a “rising trend of criminal activity in the buffer zone” and in particular growing incidences of human trafficking.
Ban said both sides reported that fewer individuals were crossing the buffer zone as illegal immigrants, but at the same time the number of arrests for human trafficking was increasing.
While Ban’s comments outlined general events and incidents of alleged human rights violations on both sides over the past year, certain issues were the target of real criticism. The vast majority of these concerned behaviour by the Greek Cypriot side.
Ban singled out as “an incident of particular concern” the attack by Greek Cypriot nationalists on Turkish Cypriot pupils at the English School in November.
He said that although President Tassos Papadopoulos issued a statement condemning the attack shortly after its occurrence, “no judicial action is known to have been taken to date”.
The Secretary-general also said UNFICYP had received complaints of systematic discrimination from the representative of the Turkish Cypriot community in Limassol concerning immigration and deportation related
cases, delays in issuance of government documents and permits, and difficulties for Turkish Cypriots to secure citizenship for a foreign spouse.
“These cases can be aggravated by the fact that official documents and application forms are not available in Turkish, even though Turkish
is an official language of the Republic as per the Constitution of 1960,” Ban said.
He also said concern had been raised regarding allegations of discriminatory treatment against Turkish Cypriot prisoners in the Nicosia Central Prison.
These included denial of entry of relatives from Turkey to the Republic of Cyprus, which he said “in practice impedes prisoners’ visitation rights”, as does the fact that home visits are only permitted to take place in the Republic of Cyprus.
“The latter rule also affects eligibility for the more lenient “open prison regime”, for which successful conclusion of two home visits is a prerequisite,” said Ban. He added that UNFICYP had intervened, and in at least three cases, inmates who complained were now benefiting from the open prison arrangement
Turkish Cypriot students also continue to be confronted with lack of access to the Erasmus, Socrates and Bologna processes or other European scholarship programmes, Ban said.
http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=31402&archive=1
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